Marky Ramone: In 1992 I Talked To The Ramones Drummer About "Mondo Bizarro"

Originally published in American Music Press (October 1992)
By Devorah Ostrov

Legend has it that punk rock began on July 4, 1976. On that perfectly patriotic date, the Ramones — formed some two years previously in Forest Hills, NY — made their pivotal UK debut at the Roundhouse in London. And pretty much every Brit kid who went on to form a furiously fast, three-chord band was in the crowd that night. "We had hoped that the kids would see us and feel they could do it too," commented guitarist Johnny Ramone at the time.

The Ramones' Mondo Bizarro tour comes to

Cologne, Germany - December 5, 1992

Sixteen years and more than a dozen albums later, the Ramones are still going strong. The group's latest offering (and their first on Radioactive Records) is called Mondo Bizarro, and it features some of their finest material in a decade.

"It's a good one!" declares drummer Marky Ramone when I call him in New York. "We took our time. We selected the best songs. We practiced them a lot. And this is the end result."

"Poison Heart," the first single release, is a classic sounding pop tune co-written by Daniel Rey and former Ramones' bassist Dee Dee (who left the band in 1989 and took some pains to distance himself from the guys by issuing a solo LP as Dee Dee King).

Surprisingly, Dee Dee also co-wrote (again with Rey) two other songs — "Strength to Endure" and "Main Man" — both sung by his replacement, C.J. So, they don't hate Dee Dee and vice-versa?

"No! No way!" exclaims Marky (who replaced original drummer Tommy Ramone in 1978, after stints with Dust, Wayne County's Back Street Boys, and Richard Hell's Voidoids). "Maybe, in the beginning, there was a little animosity because he left us. But it all worked out. We're still friendly with him; he's still friendly with us. He's a Ramone!"

Marky Ramone - recent publicity photo

Another big surprise is the amount of radio play "Poison Heart" is receiving. While lack of airplay was once the bane of the Ramones' existence, Bay Area station Live 105 (KITS) is spinning the song so often you could actually get sick of it.

"It's weird, right!" laughs Marky. "It's strange because when we came out, we were just a bunch of aliens. There was no one like us, so they were afraid of us. And a lot of radio stations didn't want to play us because we went against the grain. You had your Foreigner, your Journey, your Fleetwood Mac... rock was really soft at that point."

He continues, "Eventually, you had all these bands wearing leather jackets and holes in their pants. They started playing fast songs and, obviously, they were influenced by us. These people admit it. And now, I guess, a lot of people who owe us are saying, 'Maybe it's the Ramones' time.'"

Is he talking about Skid Row covering "Psycho Therapy" on the "B-Side Ourselves" EP?

"And Motorhead did 'Ramones' on their last album. And Guns N' Roses always wear our t-shirts, and they've always said that we're one of their favorite bands. I don't necessarily like or dislike these bands, that's just their way of showing gratitude to us. Now they're playing 'Poison Heart,' which is great. But I hope they recognize the fact that there's other songs on the album that are just as good."

L-R: Joey Ramone, C.J. Ramone, Johnny Ramone & Marky Ramone

Photos from the Mondo Bizarro CD

Marky particularly likes the opening track, "Censorshit." Written by vocalist Joey Ramone, the lyrics reference a certain politician's wife and those irritating P.M.R.C. stickers that alert us to the imagined evil lurking in our favorite records: "Tipper, what's that sticker sticking on my CD?/Is that some kind of warning to protect me?/Freedom of choice needs a stronger, stronger voice/You can stamp out the source, but you can't stop creative thoughts..."

Dust - Marky Ramone (Marc Bell), Kenny Aaronson & Richie Wise

"We feel censorship is very un-American," asserts Marky. "I think a conservative minority is trying to push their view on the majority of the country."

"We were at the Berlin Wall when it came down," he adds. "I chipped away pieces of the wall for myself! There's no more communism in Russia, so why the hell are they gonna have censorship here?"

What does he think about the possibility that Tipper Gore (co-founder of the P.M.R.C. and wife of Bill Clinton's running mate, Al Gore) might soon be in the White House?

"Clinton's opposed to censorship," Marky notes. "When he gets in, he's probably gonna tell her to cool off. But if she screws around during the first four years, he'd better watch out. The [entertainment] industry will go against him and not vote for him in four years. And then he'll lose because the industry has a lot of influence."

Poster for two shows in Mexico City - 1992

Will he be voting for Clinton?

"Yeah, I have to," Marky responds a little reluctantly.

Getting back to Mondo Bizarro, fans of the group's early efforts will enjoy "Heidi is a Headcase," a direct descendant of "Suzy is a Headbanger," as well as the '60s surf-inspired sounds of "Touring" — so reminiscent of Jan and Dean, it could be a cover!

"That's what's so good about that song," observes Marky. "It could be a cover, but it isn't!"

Speaking of covers... Known for their speeded-up interpretations of simplistic pop ditties, another shocker on Mondo Bizarro is their cover of the Doors' "Take It as It Comes." Which is — how do I phrase this properly? — sort of complicated with oodles of keyboards!

How did that happen?

"One day, John said, 'Let's do a Doors' song.' And I said, 'What!?' I didn't wanna do 'Light My Fire.' But when he brought in this obscure album track, I agreed it was a good idea. It wasn't a single, and no one has really heard of it. We just put our style to it, and that's what happened. Very simple."

Have any of the surviving Doors heard their version?

Richard Hell & the Voidoids - featuring Marky Ramone (Marc Bell) 

Photo by Kate Simon (from the "Blank Generation" 45)

"Ray Manzarek… He's flattered that we did it. As a matter of fact, we were gonna have him on keyboards, but he said he doesn't play music anymore. We used some other guy from some other band [Joe McGinty, ex-Psychedelic Furs]."

Marky (in collaboration with a mysterious character called Skinny Bones) also supplies two new numbers: "Anxiety" and "The Job That Ate My Brain." The first is a bit of stressed-out silliness; however, the second is an interesting tale about day-job woes: "Out of bed at 6:15, in a rush and you can't think/Gotta catch the bus and train, I'm in a rush and feelin' insane/I can't take this crazy pace, I've become a mental case/Yeah, this is the job that ate my brain..."

Promo poster for Mondo Bizarro

(Radioactive Records - 1992)

"In this fast-paced society, there's a lot of things that people wanna do," elaborates Marky. "They've got families to raise, they want to relax, they want to play, but they gotta get up and work for some company. They don't have time for themselves. It sucks!"

That last sentiment sounds like Marky is speaking from personal experience. Has he ever held down a day-job?

"I used to mix cement. I used to put up wrought-iron gates... y'know, construction stuff."

When was this?

He briefly falters. "This was before... this was around... after I left the Ramones in '83. For four years, I was doing stuff like that because I didn't wanna be involved with the music business anymore."

I'd been wondering how to bring up his temporary departure from the group (during which he was replaced by Richie Ramone). From what I've read, it wasn't pretty. Creem magazine documented one especially divisive moment: "Johnny is on the phone, obviously agitated, saying things like, 'I'm pissed about this! … If he doesn't wanna do it...!' Turns out that drummer Marky has pulled a walkout with the Toronto date just three days away."

"Me and Dee Dee..." Marky starts to explain, then hesitates. It's clearly still a sensitive subject.

The Ramones

L-R: C.J., Johnny, Marky, and Joey

"He had a drug problem and I had a drinking problem, and it was getting to me. It was winning, y'know. I ended up drunk every day. So, I turned around one day and thought, What's more important? Acting like a jerk and embarrassing myself? Getting up off the floor every morning? Or playing in a band that I like? So, I just stopped. I went away for a while and did straight jobs just to get back to some other kind of reality."

What made him finally return to the fold?

"Well... John, ah... called me one day..." says Marky, still choosing his words carefully. "Richie wasn't working out, and he asked me to come back in the band. And that was it."

Marky Ramone on the cover of Modern Drummer

February 2014

Spin magazine recently acknowledged the Ramones' impact by naming them one of the most significant bands in rock history (the list of seven also includes Jimi Hendrix, the Beatles, the Rolling Stones, and the Sex Pistols).

According to Spin: "No group in the last eighteen years has been more important or more influential, including the Sex Pistols (who probably couldn't have existed without the Ramones). There's a real straight line from the Ramones to Nirvana, for anyone who'd care to trace it."

How did that make them feel?

"We were very flattered," states Marky.

The Ramones are an American institution, I point out.

"That's what I hear, but I don't know what it means. I'd just like to sell a few more copies of our new album. Y'know what I mean? That would be nice."


* You can read my other interviews with the Ramones here:
devorahostrov.blogspot.com/2019/02/the-ramones-turn-20-release-all-covers
devorahostrov.blogspot.com/2017/12/the-ramones-this-january-1978-interview
devorahostrov.blogspot.com/2017/09/the-last-time-i-talked-to-joey-ramone

The Ramones Turn 20 & Release An All-Covers CD: A Conversation With Joey About "Acid Eaters" & Rock 'N' Roll

Originally published in American Music Press (March 1994)

Interview by Devorah Ostrov

Promotion for the Acid Eaters tour

Denmark - June 25, 1994

When the Ramones got together in 1974, rock 'n' roll was, if not dead, at least comatose. The great one-hit-wonder garage-rock bands of the mid-sixties were a fading memory. The late-sixties heavy metal attack of the Stooges and MC5 had never really caught on in the States. And the early-seventies promise of a glam future with the Dolls, T. Rex and Slade had waned.

In '74, listening to the radio was something to think twice about. On the phone from New York, Joey Ramone runs down the list (within a year or two) of what you might have heard...

Radioactive Records publicity pic

"Gloria Gaynor, Donna Summer, Peter Frampton, Foreigner, Journey, Toto, REO Speedwagon… all those wonderful bands. That was our competition. There was us and there was them. We stood alone. There was nobody like us. And there's still nobody like us!"

Joey continues: "We wanted to save rock 'n' roll. We stripped it down to the bone and put the excitement back into it — the attitude, the guts, the fun, the spirit, the raw energy and emotion!"

This year the Ramones — Joey, Johnny, Marky, and newest recruit C.J. — celebrate the group's 20th anniversary with the release of Acid Eaters, an all-covers CD showcasing their love of rock 'n' roll. And with a successful world tour underway, they find themselves in the enviable position of being more popular than ever.

* * *

Not only is Joey Ramone the coolest person on the planet, but he's also a huge rock 'n' roll fan, and he gets super excited when we talk about one of his favorite groups. I ask him what it was like the first time he saw the Who...

"It just blew me away!" he exclaims. "I saw them when they first played America in 1966. They were so charismatic and exciting and wild, all this aggression and excitement and great songs!"

Poster for Australia's Big Day Out - January 21, 1994 

And he enthusiastically recalls a recent meeting with Bob Dylan in Tokyo, where the Hard Rock Café threw a blow-out party for the Ramones' 2000th show.

"After the party, me and [noted rock photographer] Bob Gruen went to see Dylan at Budokan. We went backstage, and Dylan said 'Hello' to me. I freaked out! He said, 'Hey, Joey, how ya doin'?' I gave him a copy of Acid Eaters and said, 'This is for you. We covered one of your songs.'"

Acid Eaters

Radioactive Records (1993)

The Ramones' latest offering is a tribute to the music of the 1960s (with one exception: CCR's "Have You Ever Seen the Rain" was issued in early '71). A bit strange, you might think. But you'd be wrong because their passion for the genre is what makes the concept so appealing.

After two decades of inspiring — by Joey's calculation — millions of bands themselves, the guys get to pay homage to some of their own musical heroes.

And maybe it'll give the MTV generation a rock history lesson to boot. (Although that could be a chore as the liner notes only list who wrote the songs, not who performed them — and how many kids are gonna know what outfit Reg Presley fronted?)

The Ramones almost always include an impeccable cover or two on their records — "California Sun" from Leave Home, "Do You Wanna Dance" and "Surfin' Bird" from Rocket To Russia, "Indian Giver" on the B-side of "Real Cool Time." But the idea for Acid Eaters came about when they recorded "Take It as It Comes" (a lesser-known Doors' tune) for 1992's Mondo Bizarro.

Acid Eaters
All Access pass

"The Doors' song was really well-received," remarks Joey, "and our manager, who is also the head of our label [Radioactive Records] said, 'Why don't you guys record five of your favorite songs from that period and we'll make it into an EP. Kind of a treat for the fans.'"

Understandably, with so much material to pick from, the progression from five-song treat to full-length CD didn't take long.

As well as Dylan's "My Back Pages," many garage-rock nuggets are contained amongst the 12 tracks: the Amboy Dukes' "Journey to the Center of the Mind," Love's "7 and 7 Is," the Seeds' "Can't Seem to Make You Mine," the Troggs' "I Can't Control Myself," and the Animals' "When I Was Young."

And almost everything makes sense within the framework of what one might imagine the Ramones listened to as teenagers.

However, the freakish inclusion of an over-played classic-rock standard like the Jefferson Airplane's "Somebody to Love" begs for speculation. Since it's hard to believe that anyone in the Ramones was ever a big Airplane fan, I have to presume that some nervous record company executive shouted, "Don't you guys like anything people have heard of?"

Promotion for the Acid Eaters tour & the Ramones' 2000th show

Tokyo, Japan - February 9, 1994

"The Jefferson Airplane song was our manager's idea," admits Joey. He diplomatically adds, "But after taking it on, it actually became kind of challenging."

While we're on the subject, "Somebody to Love" also features one of three "special guests" who popped round during the recording sessions. In this case, it's a former porn star who isn't normally associated with the Ramones (or any sort of music, really).

"7 and 7 Is" promo CD single

"Somebody called from the office and said, 'How about a guest vocalist?' remembers Joey. 'We have this woman and she's great!' I was like, 'Who? Tina Turner?' And they said, 'No... Traci Lords!' I said, 'Oh...'"

He laughs and says, "I'll leave it at that."

Luckily, the two other guests are saner choices: Skid Row's Sebastian Bach does something on "Out of Time," and Pete Townshend joins in on his own "Substitute." Let's talk about Pete first...

Q: So, Joey... recording "Substitute" while Pete Townshend looked on — you must have just died!

Joey: I was in total awe! I mean, Pete Townshend is my hero! He'll never know just how significantly he's influenced me, how he's enhanced my life. The Who were such a big influence on me as far as songwriting. You can't really tell someone that stuff. The best thing was just watching him sing the backing vocals. And I think the song sounds great! It's really exciting!

Wonderful Japanese advertisement 
for Acid Eaters

Q: And Sebastian Bach... Did he get lost on the way to the Guns N' Roses sessions for The Spaghetti Incident?

Joey: Haha! I was talking to him on the phone, and I told him what we were doing. He said, "Wow! I'd like to do something." I mentioned it to John, and we tried to find something for him to do. Y'know, some people might think, "Skid Row, yech!" I even thought that myself at one time. But they're cool rock 'n' roll kids.

Q: I have to mention your cover of "7 and 7 Is." Somehow your version is played even faster than the speed-of-sound original! But I wish you'd done the trippy ending.

Joey: We're not gonna do that shit! It was too psychedelic for us. But I do think our version is exciting and powerful. As a matter of fact, it's gonna be the next single.

Q: I've heard that [Love vocalist] Arthur Lee has written a song especially for the Ramones. Is that something you'll be recording?

Joey: He wrote a song and he gave me a cassette of it. It was good... it was called... I dunno what it was called. I dunno where I put it. I'm sure it's around here somewhere. Uhmm...

Lux Interior has a starring role in the video for "Substitute."
Click here to watch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIWpfS_MFHw

Q: Okay... There's probably no danger of it turning up on a Ramones' CD anytime soon. So, were there other songs that you wanted to include on Acid Eaters that didn't make it?

Joey: Yeah, I would've liked to have done a Kinks' song, and we listened to "I Had Too Much to Dream Last Night" [by the Electric Prunes], but a lot of people have done that song. We also mentioned doing "It's Cold Outside" [by the Choir]. Stiv Bators turned me onto the original, and I used to love it. But it didn't sound that great when I went back and listened to it.

Chrysalis advert for Acid Eaters

Q: Did any of the songs on Acid Eaters pose a problem for you vocally?

Joey: Y'know, you might think it's easy to just cover someone else's song, but it really isn't — especially the way I went about it. I wasn't just trying to cover the songs. I wanted to bring my own style to them. Some of them I stuck a little closer to, like "Can't Seem to Make You Mine." I love Sky's voice and his mannerisms, the way he utilizes his voice. But then a song like "Out of Time"... I wanted to give that one more of an R&B feel.

Q: Do you hope that kids will be inspired to check out the originals after hearing your versions of these songs?

Joey: Hopefully... I mean, there's so much great music out there. Especially if you're a musician yourself, it's totally inspiring to delve into the past. You have to go backwards in order to go forwards. Y'know what I mean?

Q: Sadly, kids don't know anything about rock history.

Joey: It's really pretty pathetic, people's knowledge of music. They haven't got the slightest idea — especially kids in America for some ridiculous reason.

Q: MTV...

Saint Joey painting by Vicki Berndt

https://vickiberndt.com

Joey: Maybe. But even before there was MTV it was like this. I don't know what it is. I remember the first time we went to England in 1976, all these young kids knew all about Little Richard, all the '50s artists, everything! I was blown away! They were totally on top of it. But that's why music sucks in America. Well... it doesn't completely.

Q: C.J. is such a young kid; did he know any of these songs beforehand?

Joey: He knew some of them. His father listened to a lot of that stuff.

Q: Great, my dad likes these songs!

Joey: Haha! I know! Things are so different from when I was a kid. My dad listened to Frank Sinatra records.

Q: I noticed that C.J. is making some sneaky inroads into your territory. He sang lead on two songs from Mondo Bizarro and three more on Acid Eaters ["The Shape of Things to Come," "My Back Pages" and "Journey to the Center of the Mind"]. His vocals are great, but what gives?

Joey: He's pushing me out. I'm gonna let him be the singer!

Radioactive Records publicity photo

Q: What are you going to do? Play tambourine?

Joey: Nah... I'll get a job at Wendy's, or something. No, actually I think it's great. Initially, I was supposed to sing "My Back Pages," but C.J. was doing it at the rehearsals and it was so perfect. He gave the song so much attitude. I just told him, "You should sing it."

Q: Is it true that Dylan was rehearsing next door while you guys were learning "My Back Pages"?

Joey: I wasn't there, but I called the rehearsal studio, and Monty [longtime Ramones' tour manager] told me that Dylan's tour manager was on the phone next to him. Later on, I found out that they were back-to-back rehearsing. Apparently, when John heard that Dylan was right next door, he said, "Uh... let's move on to something else."

Q: I know you've only been back home for a few days...

Joey: Yeah, we just got back from a big tour of Australia and Japan. We were co-headlining [with Soundgarden] this major festival that goes all over Australia called Big Day Out. It's something like Lollapalooza, but much larger — a 12-hour day with 50 bands and five stages! There were some really great bands on the show: the Breeders, Smashing Pumpkins, Teenage Fanclub, Urge Overkill... all the new alternative bands.

Promotion for the Acid Eaters tour - Uruguay 1994

Q: Were you aware of how well Acid Eaters was doing while you were away?

Joey: Not really... I came home to find that the album's been #1 for three weeks straight on CMJ [a "what's hot" industry report], and it's #1 on all the major college charts. The single ["Substitute"] was #1 the first week too! And this week it went to AOR radio. We've always had a problem with AOR radio, but everybody's playing it. It's really exciting! It feels like something's happening here.

"Substitute" CD promo single
Photo: George DuBose

Joey is explaining how the video for "Substitute" being shown on MTV is the edited version — "There's a real wild scene at the end. I mean, maybe it is a little over-the-top but..." — when his doorbell buzzes. It's an Argentinean journalist who's come to do his interview. But Joey "likes the flow of our conversation" and asks me to call him back later! When we talk again, it's about a range of different topics...

Q: How did the Ramones' sound come about?

Joey: Our sound came about... it came from scratch! At least as far as John and Dee Dee [original bassist] and Tommy [original drummer]. Tommy wasn't even a drummer. He was an advisor and a producer; he was just helping us out. When we were auditioning drummers, Tommy would show them what to play, and he'd never played drums in his life! In those days, everybody was very, let's say, self-indulgent. Everybody was trying to impress us with their flashiness. But what we wanted was a basic drummer, like a Charlie Watts. So, Tommy just wound up sitting down and playing the drums.

Q: Could you tell me a little about the Resistance, your politically oriented sideband?

Car 54, Where Are You? starring David Johansen

and John C. McGinley (and featuring the Ramones)

Joey: Oh, okay! Initially, I was asked to do three songs for a Rock the Vote benefit at CBGB's. I wanted to create a unique and exciting situation, so I pulled together a bunch of different musicians and artists: Ivan Julian [ex-Voidoid] and Fred Smith [ex-Television], C.J. and Marc, some people from the Living Theater... And each song was played by a different grouping of people.
     Then I was asked to play a benefit for Jerry Brown's campaign. I had just seen a debate between Brown and Clinton. I was really impressed by Brown; he seemed to be on top of it. So, I said I would do it. It felt really good to do something constructive in support of someone I believed in.
     I got together with Andy Shernoff [ex-Dictators] and Daniel Rey [ex-Shrapnel and writer of cool songs] and did one show in Washington Square Park. Then we played uptown on one of those flatbed trucks for about 50/75,000 people! The last thing we played was a benefit for Rock for Choice on the 20th anniversary of Roe v. Wade.
     The Resistance was a stimulating project and it was a lot of fun! I liked getting behind some causes that were important to get behind, like the cause of censorship. The song "Censorshit" [from Mondo Bizarro] was inspired by the Resistance. And I wrote a song for the Rock for Choice benefit called "Fascists Don't Fuck They Just Screw."

Promotion for the Acid Eaters tour

Santiago, Chile - May 16, 1994

Q: Haha! Will the Ramones be doing that song?

Joey: No... John's a Republican! Musically the Ramones are united; politically we're not. We share some views, like John's for a woman's right to an abortion. But we're not in sync with everything.

Q: I understand you've cleaned up your lifestyle lately. Is it true you're a vegetarian these days?

Joey: Yeah, and I stopped drinking and using drugs about four years ago. It was time for a change. I saw the light when I hit...

Q: Forty?

Joey: Ground zero! It wasn't hitting 40. I just got disgusted with my lifestyle; it was becoming a big bore.

The Ramones eat cake and promote Acid Eaters on 

Space Ghost Coast to Coast

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4H-3N0jNbDI

Q: Did you do any shopping while you were in Japan?

Joey: Y'know, Japan has the best record stores! They've got everything! Most places, you're lucky to find one or two records, but over there I had to choose from like five or six. I got the Best Of T. Rex — it has everything on it, all the early stuff. I also found this rock 'n' roll video store. The whole store was just tapes, rare collectible stuff from shows all over the world. I was flippin'! They had a tape of the Who from '66. Pete Townshend's about 18; he's like a rail with a big nose. It's so great!

Promotion for the 1994 Acid Chaos tour

featuring Sepultura and the Ramones

Q: So, tell me about the film Car 54, Where Are You? starring David Johansen. The Ramones appear in it...

Joey: Did you see it?

Q: Er… no. Entertainment Weekly gave it an "F."

Joey: Haha! I never saw it either. I'll wait for it to come to cable. I just heard that "Rockaway Beach" is going to be used in the new Martin Scorsese film, Naked In New York, and there's a film coming out in March or April called Airheads — we have the title track in that. It's about a band that takes over a radio station. It sounds like it has the makings of a good movie; it's something I've thought about a few times myself!

Q: Did you go to or play at CBGB's 20th Anniversary party?

Joey: No, we were on tour. We were in Germany at the time. I was kind of pissed off because there were a lot of shows I wanted to see, and we were talking about playing, but it didn't come together. Now that it's our own 20th anniversary, we might do something like an off-the-cuff show at CBGB's. It would be an event!

Q: Twenty years... Who would've thought?

Promo poster for Acid Eaters
Radioactive Records (1993)

Joey: When you care about something... What other people think doesn't really matter to us. Y'know what I mean? We work hard. We've always worked our asses off and stuck to our vision!

* Follow these links to read my other interviews with the Ramones:

blogspot.com/the-ramones-this-january-1978-interview

blogspot.com/the-last-time-i-talked-to-joey-ramone

blogspot.com/in-1992-i-talked-to-marky-ramone

Bob Gruen: An Interview With The Man Who Snapped Your Favorite Rock Pics

Originally published in American Music Press, March 1994
All photos are used with permission. 

John Lennon — Walls And Bridges 2005 CD reissue

Photo: Bob Gruen

Interview by Devorah Ostrov

In the 1970s, the name Bob Gruen and the term "rock photography" were synonymous. He was a regular contributor to Creem and Rolling Stone, and his photographs graced (among other LPs) Kiss' Dressed To Kill, the New York Dolls' Too Much Too Soon, John Lennon's Walls And Bridges, and Elton John's Madman Across The Water.

But most of us know him for his prodigious contributions to Rock Scene magazine, where each issue featured dozens of his on-and-offstage photos. Of his colleague, editor Richard Robinson once remarked: "The man who has done the most for Rock Scene's pic collection is no doubt Bob Gruen who always seems to be on the spot when the action is taking place."

Whether it was Aerosmith at Madison Square Garden or the Ramones at CBGB's, a backstage party with David Bowie or a game of pinball with David Johansen, Kiss' 1978 tour of Japan or the Rolling Stones' 1975 tour of America, the Bay City Rollers or Led Zeppelin — Gruen was there to chronicle it.

The New York-born photographer, now in his forties, has recently published a series of photo books under the heading Bob Gruen Works (Jam Books). Individual titles include The Sex Pistols: Chaos, Led Zeppelin, John Lennon, and The Rolling Stones: Featuring Keith Richards. He is currently working on a new, deluxe edition of John Lennon photographs for Genesis Books.

* * *

The Clash, MA — 1979

Photo: Bob Gruen

AMP: When did you first become interested in photography?

Bob Gruen: Photography was my mom's hobby. When I was too young and too little to go outside, she would take me into the darkroom with her. I've been involved with it since then.

AMP: Did she teach you photography?

Bob: She taught me what she knew, and then I pretty much taught myself after that. I never went to school for photography.

AMP: Do you remember your first camera?

Bob: The first one I owned was a Brownie Hawkeye. It was an early version of the simple point-and-shoot.

AMP: What was your first published photo?

Bob: It was a picture of a fire published in a local Long Island newspaper. And I used to take pictures for the school newspaper — football pictures, sports...

AMP: And when did you first discover rock 'n' roll?

Bob: In the '50s, when it was invented.

AMP: Listening to Elvis on the radio?

Bob: Even before Elvis... Bill Haley. I think the first record I bought was "The Terror of Highway 101," but I forget who it was by.

AMP: At what point did you figure out that you could combine rock 'n' roll and photography into a career?

Bob: I don't know if I figured it out, so much as just did it. After high school, my friends and I were all living together in the City. They were forming bands, and I was always taking pictures of everything. Then when my friend's band Glitterhouse got signed, which was like in '68 or so, I met the people at Atlantic Records and started taking pictures of other bands for them. I shot a Bee Gees' party for Atlantic, and that worked out really well. And then they hired me to photograph Tommy James and the Shondells. One thing just led to another. Back then, the idea of establishing a career wasn't quite as conscious a choice as it would be today. Back then, there was no career of rock photography. There were no rock 'n' roll magazines. There was no Rolling Stone magazine yet.

AMP: When you were taking photos for Atlantic, where were the pictures going?

Bob: There were some magazines... trade magazines like Billboard and Cash Box, and that's what the record companies would hire you for. And there was Hit Parader and 16 magazine.

AMP: What was your first major assignment?

Bob: Around 1970/71, I did a really great picture of Ike and Tina Turner and then went on the road with them. Ike used to pay me to make videotapes of the shows. It was a lot of fun. I mean, it was kind of a wild show and the cast of characters was pretty unusual.

John Lennon, NYC — 1974

Photo: Bob Gruen

AMP: I first became aware of your work through Rock Scene. Were you the main photographer from issue #1?

Bob: No, but I pretty quickly became a big part of it. Towards the end, about half of every issue was mine.

AMP: How did you become connected with the magazine?

Bob: I met... I'm not exactly sure who introduced us, but I met [editors] Richard and Lisa Robinson, and Lenny Kaye, and [photographer] Leee Childers, and [journalist] Lillian Roxon. We used to have a lot of fun! We'd go to all the press parties. In the '70s, there were a lot more press parties than there are now. Sometimes there'd be two or three a day; you'd have hors d'oeuvres at one, a main course at another, and coffee and dessert at a third! And each one would have a band playing or getting a gold record or something promotional going on. We started making stories out of these parties — photo stories. We'd put in photos of the manager, the publicist, the agent, the lawyer, the girlfriend... If I went on tour, like later when I was touring with the Sex Pistols or the Clash, we would run a two- or three-page story with maybe five or six pictures on a page. We'd show the band onstage, backstage tuning up, sitting in the hotel room, what the bus looked like, what the manager looked like at the party... the whole ambiance of the scene. We were recording the rock scene instead of just the rock star, and people really seemed to like it.

AMP: I loved Rock Scene! Lots of photos, not a lot of words!

Bob: Right, that was what the magazine was about. It was easy to read, it was funny, and yet it was very informative.

AMP: I know that everyone on the staff was involved in other major projects — like Lenny was playing guitar with the Patti Smith Group. How were you guys able to produce a quality magazine on a regular basis? And what possessed you to try?

Bob: It was sort of a hobby for all of us, a way to have fun while we were making money on other levels. The magazine came out three or four times a year, and I would put things aside. If I was taking pictures at a party, the record company might take one or two shots, and I would save the other pictures for Rock Scene. But the magazine was a labor of love; we never made any money doing it, which is why it finally folded. It wasn't a magazine with an office; we didn't have any advertising staff. The only staff was... Every two or three months, Richard and Lenny would get together and collect all the pictures, lay 'em out, and write funny captions for them. And in between, Lisa would organize the assignments.

AMP: Tell me about your work with Elephant's Memory. I know you were good friends with John Lennon and Yoko Ono.

Bob: I had been working with a number of different groups — Elton John, Ike and Tina Turner... And that led to my being in a book called Rock Photography. Henry Edwards, who interviewed me for the bio section of the book, told me he was interviewing John Lennon the following week. He asked if I would come and take photos of John and Yoko and the Elephants for him. I had to wait around until the end of the night, but I did do a picture of John and Yoko and the Elephants. It turned out that I was the only one who had pictures of them in the studio together, and they wanted to use my photo on the album cover. I met with John and Yoko, that's when we first started talking and getting to know each other. Through that, I met their managers Leber-Krebs and Tony Machine, who was working in their office. Tony said, "Ya gotta come down and see this other band that Leber-Krebs manages."

Kiss, NYC — 1974

Photo: Bob Gruen

AMP: And that was the New York Dolls! I've heard that it took several attempts before you actually saw the Dolls perform.

Bob: The first time I went to a Dolls' show... Tony told me to go to the Mercer Arts Center. I remember being there for about 20 minutes when I saw a guy I knew wearing eyeliner. I totally freaked and ran out the door. Tony told me to go back a second time, "It's okay." So, I went back. While I was waiting for the band to come on, I saw some wild guys wearing makeup, but I also saw some cute girls wearing not very much. That got me interested and I stayed around for a while, but I still didn't see the band. The third time I went, I saw people going in and out of a side door. I thought it was the bathroom. I walked in, and there were the Dolls onstage! They were completely surrounded by the audience. There was a wall of people in front of them. There was a mass of people standing on the stage. It was complete chaos! And it was incredibly funny and exciting!

AMP: You went on to become the Dolls' main photographer. How did you develop that relationship?

Bob: We worked well together. I understood what they were doing, and they liked what I was doing. The same thing with John and Yoko. And I did my job well. I didn't interfere, didn't push for too much, just did my job and had a good time with them.

AMP: I want to ask you about Looking For A Kiss, the video you made of the Dolls. Why was it never released commercially?

Bob: Because the management and the band and everybody had something to say, and everyone wanted a certain percentage. Before there was ever any actual offer of money for the video, there were so many discussions of how it was gonna be split up, that it never happened. But just recently, there's been some developments — Guns N' Roses do a Dolls' track ["Human Being"] on their new album, and Polygram is reissuing the CDs. So, they may be interested in the video. I hope we can finally get it released.

AMP: When did you first photograph the Ramones?

Bob: Their manager, Danny Fields, had organized a showcase in a loft. I think it was on 16th or 18th Street. And he had a band there with a logo behind them that said: "The Ramones." They played, I think, 18 songs in 12 minutes or 12 songs in 18 minutes. Something incredibly fast. And when it was over, we went, "What the HELL was that?" But they kind of grew on everybody.

AMP: And you took photos of Iggy Pop the first time the Stooges played New York.

Bob: At the Electric Circus. There was a photo... Iggy had played at a festival in Ohio or somewhere, where the audience was packed so close to the stage that he literally walked off the stage, and there was this picture of the audience holding him in the air. He tried to step off the stage at the Electric Circus, and everybody jumped out of the way. He landed about six feet down on the ground!

AMP: Of all the photos you've taken, which are you most proud of?

Bob: I like the photo of John Lennon in front of the Statue of Liberty; a multiple-exposure picture of Tina Turner that really shows the kind of energy and excitement that she puts into a show; and a picture of Chuck Berry kissing his guitar — I like the composition and the rock 'n' roll feeling of that one.

AMP: What about your favorite assignments?

The New York Dolls, CA — 1973

Photo: Bob Gruen

Bob: Working with John and Yoko at Madison Square Garden was probably the highlight of my career. Standing next to John while he was playing "Imagine" was probably the most exciting thing I ever did. I remember when I was onstage with the Who in Florida, that was exciting! Traveling to Los Angeles with the New York Dolls was very exciting. Going on the road for a few dates with Alice Cooper...

AMP: And what about the worst assignments?

Bob: I don't like to get into that. For years I didn't have an answer when someone would ask, "What's the worst group you've ever worked with?" And then I worked with one guy who was such a major schmuck I finally had an answer. But I don't like to publicize him because he was such a drag.

AMP: Let's talk about some of the other major bands you toured with in the '70s. The Bay City Rollers...

Bob: They were very exciting and very young. I mean, I'd traveled with people like the Allman Bros. and Alice Cooper, which were hard-drinking, hard-partying crews. The Bay City Rollers, when they would have a strong drink, it was a milkshake! That was the excitement of the day — they would get milkshakes and hamburgers from McDonald's and have a pillow fight. But they were a good, tight band. And although it was at a pre-pubescent level, they were really sexy as far as the kids were concerned.

AMP: Kiss...

Bob: They were an unusual group to work with because they were only Kiss from ten minutes before they went onstage until the end of the show. Kiss was like a superhero costume. After the show, Kiss didn't exist anymore. They went back to their secret identities.

AMP: Did you ever photograph them without the makeup?

Bob: I could have if I'd wanted to sneak around and not have a job. I remember the first Kiss show I photographed... It was natural for me to go backstage and take pictures of the band in the dressing room. Bill Aucoin [Kiss' manager] said, "We're not having any pictures of them without makeup." I just said, "Oh, okay." And I worked with them for ten years after that. If someone tells me, "We don't want a picture," I don't sneak around. I don't try to expose things that people don't want seen. I try to take pictures of people looking like what they want to look like, showing the sides that they want to show. I don't invade people's privacy.

AMP: Was it your idea to put Kiss in suits for the cover of Dressed To Kill?

Bob: Yes, it was part of a two-page photo cartoon in Rock Scene. That's how it came about. Gene [Simmons] is actually wearing one of my suits!

AMP: The Clash...

Bob: They were great to work with. They were my favorite band!

AMP: More so than the Dolls?

Bob: Well... yes and no. In different ways. The Dolls were certainly the best-looking band, the easiest to photograph. But the Clash were a great-looking band and very committed politically and socially. They were very serious about what they were doing and also having a lot of fun.

Tina Turner, NYC — 1970

Photo: Bob Gruen

AMP: I remember seeing your photos of the early Clash in Rock Scene. Did you go to England specifically to photograph them?

Bob: No, I had made some money with the Bay City Rollers and my son was living in Paris. He was one- or two-years-old at the time, so I went to visit him. And then I went to England. The only phone number I had was Malcolm McLaren's; I'd met him when he was working with the Dolls. He took me to a club called Louise where I met the Sex Pistols, the Clash, Siouxie and the Banshees, Billy Idol... and a lot of other musicians who at that point were just kids wishing they were in bands. The pictures were printed in Rock Scene. It was new, way before something like Rolling Stone would recognize it. I think the first time Rolling Stone mentioned the Sex Pistols was when they were already a major group and were on the cover.

AMP: Okay... the Sex Pistols. You were with them for the entire American tour. What was it like?

Bob: The shows were great! That they were drawing such crowds — such an eclectic group of people — and that there was such tension was interesting. But after having traveled with Ike and Tina Turner, and the New York Dolls, and Alice Cooper... To me, they weren't that unusual. They were just a bunch of wild, crazy guys — and I'd seen that already. Which is maybe partly why I was there. I was able to do it as a job and not be overwhelmed by it.

AMP: Is it true that Sid Vicious almost knifed you for your boots while you were asleep on the tour bus?

Bob: That's what they tell me.

AMP: I've noticed that in most of your photos, as opposed to say those of Annie Leibovitz, the musicians aren't posing for the camera. Is that a conscious decision on your part?

Bob: I try not to have any preconceived ideas about what I'm going to photograph. I generally let the pictures evolve from what the person is doing naturally. And rather than giving instructions or posing people, I let them move on their own. I have a way of perceiving what they think they look like, what they think they act like, and I photograph that.

AMP: In the early '80s, record companies began restricting photographers to shooting only the first three songs of a band's set. How did that change live concert photography?

Bob: It changed everything. You see, merchandising had become a problem. People were bootlegging merchandise from bands, and for some reason, they thought if they limited the amount of time a photographer had in front of the stage, they could limit the bootlegging. Which hasn't happened at all. No bootlegger I ever met has bought a picture from a photographer. They get a free publicity photo from the record company, or they use the album cover to make T-shirts.
     But the three-song limit really changed things a lot. When a band first hits the stage, they're running all over the place trying to get everybody's attention. They don't really have a focus yet. About the fourth or fifth song, it comes together — they do their power-ballad or something, and you get some decent lighting. But by that time nowadays, the photographer is gone. Most of the photographers I know don't feel they're doing a good job. It's almost impossible to come out with something artistic. I don't even try to get permission anymore; it's not worth it. If it's something special and I have access to the show, I'll do it — like with Keith Richards. Last winter, I shot his whole show and I did a really nice job. And there are certain friends I still work with. Two weeks ago, I saw Debbie Harry in London at the Hammersmith and I took some pictures.

AMP: So, you're no longer actively photographing bands?

Bob: I still take pictures all the time, but lately my life has become much more business-oriented. I'm on the phone a lot making arrangements to sell the old photos. Nowadays, I get paid more for selling a print than I got paid for taking it in the first place. I'm doing some art gallery shows and limited-edition sets of the old pictures. But I do like to take new pictures. I like working with new bands more than the big, established groups. It's easier to work with musicians than publicists and lawyers. I'm working with D Generation. They're the first band I've liked since the Clash!

The Sex Pistols, Luxembourg — 1977

Photo: Bob Gruen

AMP: On the subject of money... As one of the top rock photographers in the '70s, what were you earning?

Bob: Photographers weren't highly paid. Forget Rock Scene; that was just a labor of love. Creem would pay $35 for a picture, $50 for a full-page. German and Japanese magazines paid a bit more. So, I'd have to sell my photos to five or six different magazines in order to make a living. People think a photographer gets into a show for free, but by the time I shoot two or three rolls of color and a couple rolls of black and white... with processing, I'm spending over $100! I spend all that money and come out with one or two shots that I might be able to sell to a magazine. If Creem used five or six pictures, that would basically pay the expenses of being at the show. Then I'd have to sell some pictures to a German magazine and a Japanese magazine, and an English newspaper — and then I might start to turn a profit. I never made a lot of money. In my field, I'm successful because I'm driving a used car. Most rock photographers don't even have a car!

AMP: Tell me about your latest project. I understand you're working on a second book of John Lennon photos.

Bob: I'm doing a new John Lennon book with an English publisher. It will be a deluxe, limited-edition, leather-bound box set. Someday I hope to do a book on all the pictures I've done, the story of rock photography and how it was for me, the story of Rock Scene. I'd like to do a book on that.

AMP: A couple of quick technical questions before we wrap it up... What model camera do you prefer?

Bob: I used Nikons in the early '70s, and in the mid-'70s I traded those in for Olympus cameras. And I just recently changed to the Canon EOS System, which I think is fantastic.

AMP: What about film?

Bob: Generally, just Tri-X. I used to use Ektachrome for color, but nowadays I use Kodachrome.

AMP: What's in your camera bag right now?

Bob: Two Canon EOS1 cameras, a 50mm lens and a 10mm lens, a 2880mm zoom, two flashes, a Quantum turbo battery, a couple of extra batteries for the cameras, a Star filter, 15 rolls of film, a plastic raincoat, some samples of my pictures, and a pen.

The Ramones: This January 1978 Interview With Joey & Johnny Ramone Was The Start Of My So-Called Career In Rock Journalism

The Ramones - Rocket To Russia (Sire Records 1977)

Admittedly, this is not the greatest interview you'll ever read with the Ramones. 

Originally published in an obscure San Francisco punk 'zine, which probably nobody saw, it was my second ever interview (I don't like to talk about my first ever interview) and the start of my so-called career in rock journalism.

I'm still amazed that Joey and Johnny were so nice about answering the inane questions of a star-struck teenager desperate to know why Rocket To Russia was poppier than their previous two albums.

Originally published in Widows & Orphans #5 (1978)
Interview and Kodak Instamatic photos by Devorah Ostrov

Q: I've heard a lot of rumors about your face getting burned with oil recently.

Joey: Yeah, I struck oil.

Q: What happened?

Photo: Devorah Ostrov

Joey: Someone hit me with a stove. No, nothing happened.

Q: Do you guys like playing San Francisco?

Joey: It's all right. It's a little laid-back, you know.

Q: There's a lot of hippies.

Joey: Yeah, the more the merrier.

Q: Where else are you playing?

Joey: We're playing a lot of new cities on this tour. We're gonna cover the whole country. We went to Kansas City, we've never been there before, and sold out two shows. We played the State Theatre in Minneapolis and sold out. It's great!

Q: Rocket To Russia has a more commercial sound than your first two albums...

Joey: We've been into music since rock 'n' roll started, and we like everything. It's just press labels. Everything's gotta be labeled, it seems.

Photo: Devorah Ostrov

Q: Is Rocket To Russia selling more than the others?

Joey: Yeah, it's doing really good!

Q: Is it getting more radio airplay?

Joey: Yeah.

There's some incoherent mumbling about the weather.

Joey: We were in the Midwest, you know, all the blizzards and shit. We came out here where it's warm, and I got sick.

There's more mumbling, and somehow the conversation gets around to comparing the English punk scene to the US scene.

Joey: It wasn't like it is here. Here is like the extreme.

Q: Wait, are you saying that American punks are more extreme than English punks?

Photo: Devorah Ostrov

Joey: Over there, nobody looks like that anymore. Everyone has cropped hair, but that's it. Nobody had green hair anymore or black eyes.

Q: Do you think the Ramones are getting commercialized now?

Joey: It happens, y'know, there's nothing you can do about it. But we're not into changing to be commercial. We'll never be Fleetwood Mac. We'll never give free concerts in the park.

Someone asks about most punk groups being serious and the Ramones being more satirical.

Joey: I think groups that are serious are a lot of bullshit! I think most of the punk rock groups suck! They just give punk a bad name. They shouldn't exist in the first place.

Q: Who do you like?

Joey: The only group I like is the Clash. They're the only good English group.

Q: What do you think about the seating arrangement of the club? They seated us when we came in.

Photo: Devorah Ostrov

Joey: I felt like I was at a dinner club; like I was a freak at a circus. It felt like a dinner atmosphere.

Someone comments that the opening band, the Dils, are a political band.

Joey: There's no politics in America. That went out with Joan Baez and Country Joe McDonald.

This led into a long and boring discussion about the current political situation in England, during which Joey commented...

Joey: We don't want to depress anybody; we want to have a good time. The English groups are into being depressed. That's why they call themselves the Depressions and all that crap.

* * *

I wandered off to find Johnny.

Q: Do you find since you're gaining in popularity that you're getting hyped and commercialized?

Johnny: Hype? What does that mean? We're getting more publicity, more attention. I thought that hype was when they rave about you without seeing you, or something.

Photo: Devorah Ostrov

Q: Before the show, there was an airplane flying around the club flashing "Gabba Gabba Hey" in neon lights!

Johnny: Yeah, we heard about that. We didn't really know about it; we just heard about it.

Q: Rocket To Russia seems more pop than punk. Is that something you focused on?

Johnny: I don't think it's any particular direction of any sort. We've always liked pop songs. We're able to write better now. In the beginning, even if we wanted to write pop songs, we were incapable of it. So, it would be more punk. We're punk, we're pop, a little of everything. We wanted a well-balanced album that people could listen to. We keep hearing that everything sounds the same.

Q: Do you like being worshiped by fans?

Johnny: At times it's nice, you know. It makes you feel good; people actually care. Sometimes it gets rough on your nerves. You need to relax sometimes. When we go on, we have to walk through the crowd, and everybody starts grabbing onto your arms. That's not much fun.

Photo: Devorah Ostrov

Q: But you enjoy being loved by your fans?

Johnny: Yeah, you want fans! I don't try to let it affect me as far as getting a big ego over it. We're just playing music. It's good, but I don't know how we managed to do it. It just happened.

Q: Do you think that you came along at a time when a change was needed?

Johnny: Yeah, a change was needed. Rock 'n' roll would die if it stayed the same, and it had stayed the same for ten years. It was just a bunch of old disc jockeys playing soft music. Pretty soon, your parents would start listening to the FM radio and like it.

Q: So, your music is really just good, teenage rock 'n' roll?

Johnny: Yeah, it's new and modern, plus its rock 'n' roll. We'd listened to rock 'n' roll all our lives, and we wanted to play rock 'n' roll like it was meant to be. It's supposed to be entertaining and have energy. Nobody was living up to the image of rock 'n' roll.

Photo: Devorah Ostrov

Q: Do you like playing small clubs like the Old Waldorf?

Johnny: No, I like playing big places. The conditions are better; the stage is bigger. You don't have to walk through the crowd to get onstage. This is a nice place, though.

Q: Isn't punk rock supposed to be anti-star trips?

Johnny: No, it wasn't meant to be that. We were the first group they were calling "punk rock," and that's not what we intended. No anti-anything. There's nothing wrong with stars.

Q: Why were you the first band labeled "punk"?

Johnny: Rock 'n' roll was always punk rock since it started with Elvis Presley and Gene Vincent. They just never called it that. That's just a label that they came up with when we started playing three-and-a-half years ago at CBGB's. Some writer just wrote that, and that's what they're calling it now.

Q: When I talked to Joey, he said the scene was dying in England. Is that true?

Photo: Devorah Ostrov

Johnny: It wasn't as big as we'd heard. We expected these groups to be enormous, and they weren't very big. We were playing bigger places than all of them and drawing more people. There wasn't that much excitement.

Q: You guys just got back from a UK tour with the Rezillos. How did it go?

Johnny: Oh, great! We played London on New Year's Eve and New Year's Day in a 3,000-seat place and sold out both nights. All the shows were sold out. We played all big theatres. It just went great!

Q: Are the Ramones bigger outside of New York? Does New York tend to take you for granted?

Johnny: It used to be that way, but it's changed now. We used to play CBGB's, and when you're small, and everybody comes over and talks to you, those people tend to take you for granted because they feel like they know you. But as soon as you become big enough that all the people don't know you, then they stop taking you for granted. We just played the Palladium, and we had over 3,000 people there. The show was great, and they didn't take us for granted.

Photo: Devorah Ostrov

Q: Are there still things you want to achieve?

Johnny: Yeah, I want to get bigger!

Q: How big?

Johnny: As big as you can get! That's what you're in it for. It's fun playing to a lot of kids. You want to feel accepted; you don't really feel accepted till you're bigger.

Q: On KSAN this afternoon, you said that people are asking about your philosophy on punk rock "more than ever." So, what is your philosophy?

Johnny: Joey answered that. He said, "more than ever." I didn't even know what they were talking about. No philosophies. We just want the kids to come and have a good time.

Q: That's a philosophy.

Johnny: All right, that's it then. We don't try to lay something heavy on them.

My ticket stub for the Ramones at the Old Waldorf

January 31, 1978

* You can read my other interviews with the Ramones here:  devorahostrov.blogspot.co.uk/2017/09/the-last-time-i-talked-to-joey-ramone
devorahostrov.blogspot.com/2019/02/the-ramones-turn-20-release-all-covers
devorahostrov.blogspot.com/2019/08/in-1992-i-talked-to-marky-ramone