Lenny Kaye: From Nuggets To Doc Rock To The Patti Smith Group & Beyond

Originally published in American Music Press (1990s)
By Devorah Ostrov

The Patti Smith Group

(Arista Records publicity photo)

Guitarist, rock journalist, solo performer, producer, historian, record collector, and fan. At one time or another, Lenny Kaye has been all of these. His earliest recorded work dates to 1966, when the 19-year-old college student issued his first 45; his initial forays into rock journalism date from the same period.

He began the '70s by gathering together a collection of garage rock classics under the title Nuggets, and throughout that decade was an integral member of the Patti Smith Group as well as co-editor of Rock Scene magazine. By the 1980s, he was fronting his own band and producing some of alternative music's biggest names. These days, Kaye is hard at work co-authoring an "autobiography" of country rocker Waylon Jennings.

You Could Hear It In The Air

Lenny Kaye was born on December 27, 1946. His first year was spent living in upper Manhattan ("beneath the shadow of the George Washington Bridge"), before his family moved to the middle-class neighborhood of Jamaica, Queens. When he was eight years old, they moved again to Brooklyn. By then, it was the mid-'50s and Kaye was just discovering rock 'n' roll.

Flyer for a six-night PSG/Television 

residency at Max's Kansas City 

August 28 - September 2, 1974

"I was probably walking around Flatbush Avenue at some point..." he reminisces over the phone. "Y'know, you could hear it in the air! I was a little young for rock 'n' rolls actual birth, but I was aware of Elvis Presley. One of my first musical memories was hearing 'Tutti Frutti' on the radio. I remember thinking it was the funniest thing I'd ever heard!"

One Christmas, Kaye received a record player in the shape of a bongo drum — "I wish I still had it," he laments. And soon after, he purchased his first batch of 45s: "It's Only Make Believe" by Conway Twitty, the novelty hit "Purple People Eater" by Sheb Wooley, "To Know Him is to Love Him" by the Teddy Bears, and "The End" by Earl Grant.

"I feel in a lot of ways that I had the privilege of growing up with rock 'n' roll," says Kaye. "When I hit adolescence, the Beatles were happening. Certainly, in those years rock 'n' roll was 'youth music' and I was a youth! I loved listening to the radio, listening to all the AM DJs: Cousin Brucie on ABC, Scott Muni on WMCA, Murray the K on WINS... It really drew me in."

Kaye had begun taking accordion lessons when he was five but quit playing the instrument as a pre-teen. "The accordion was big in the '50s, but in the '60s it wasn't the coolest of instruments," he laughs. "Mostly, I was a record collector, and I bought faithfully off the Top 40. By the time I got to high school, I was infatuated with the doo-wop sound. And I kind of slid into the record collecting underground, which centered around Times Square Records at 42nd and 6th Avenue. That was the first place where I heard about the concept of 'rare' records. They were selling old Sun Records and the Moonglows on Chance Records."

Kaye's family relocated again, to suburban New Brunswick, New Jersey, where he spent his teenage years. "New Jersey introduced me to car culture," remarks Kaye, "which wasn't much of a possibility in the City. I got into that whole custom car idea — which I think is a real part of rock 'n' roll. Certainly, the Fender Stratocaster is a beautiful example of Southern California custom car art!"

PSG play two nights at London's Hammersmith Odeon

with support from the Stranglers

In 1964 Beatlemania swept the world, and Kaye's interest shifted from being "a high tenor in a doo-wop harmony group to being a bass guitarist." His first outfit was an all-covers band called the Vandals ("Bringing down the house with your kind of music!"), and their bread-and-butter gigs were frat house parties. "We played four sets a night to drunken college guys," he recalls. "Animal House really did catch it with the 20-minute versions of 'Shout' and 'What'd I Say,' with all the dirty verses: 'See that girl from Trenton State/That's where they teach you to masturbate!'"

When the Vandals folded, Kaye hooked up with another covers band, the Zoo. "We'd learn all the hits of the day. That's when I first started playing 'Gloria.' It was a good learning ground, and I thought that's where it would stay. I certainly never dreamed of becoming a rock musician."

Kaye attended Rutgers University, where he studied journalism and wrote about music for the school newspaper. "I'd write about the Fugs," he remembers. "I was very much influenced by Crawdaddy. Paul Williams [Crawdaddy's editor] had a way of looking at music which opened it up. Previous to that, you just had fan magazine stuff — what's your favorite color? — which was cute, but the mid-'60s was a very important transition period for rock 'n' roll, and the Crawdaddy writers [the staff included Jon Landau and Richard Meltzer] could take an idea and run with it. They could connect the most incredible archaeological thoughts around the music, and especially in those early psychedelic days, that really influenced me."

"Crazy Like a Fox" b/w "Shock Me"

Ork Records 1977 reissue of Kaye's 1966 single

In the fall of 1965, Kaye entered Associated Recording Studios in New York to cut his debut 45. Released the following March, both the A-side ("Crazy Like a Fox") and the B-side ("Shock Me") were penned by the team of Larry Kusik and Ritchie Adams. The former was Kaye's Uncle "Q," who later scored "Speak Softly Love" from The Godfather and "A Time for Us" from Romeo and Juliet; the latter was the vocalist for '50s combo the Fireflies.

"I guess they needed a folk/ protest kind of voice for the single," muses Kaye referring to the A-side's cheesy lyrics: "They call me neurotic and say I'm psychotic because I let my hair grow long/They say that I'm crazy and they call me lazy because I don't like to work all day long."

But curiously, the performer credited on the 45 is Link Cromwell — not Lenny Kaye. "We made up 40 first names and 40 last names," he explains. "Link is my initials disguised somewhat, and Cromwell was English in the manner of the Sir Douglas Quintet."

Based on the single, Cashbox named Kaye/Cromwell "Newcomer of the Week" for March 19, 1966, and he began to think seriously about a future in rock 'n' roll.

But it was only a fleeting thought because, like the rest of his generation, Kaye was easily distracted in the mid-'60s. "It was a time of college rebellion," he points out. "And I was pretty involved politically with smashing the state; there were protests and marches... and I was perfectly positioned for the Summer of Love."

Setlist for the 1980 Los Nuggets show in SF

In 1967, Kaye and his buddy Larry piled into a '56 Ford and "speeded out of our minds, spouting the philosophy of Finding Thou Self," drove cross-country to San Francisco.

"I went to the Avalon and saw Big Brother and the Holding Company," says Kaye. "I went to Golden Gate Park and saw the Grateful Dead. I can't say that it changed my life because my life was well along that path anyway, but all of a sudden I had a world in which to function."

Eventually, he returned to New York and pursued a degree in American History at NYU. One day, while he was "hanging out," someone introduced him to Patricia Kennealy [later Patricia Kennealy-Morrison], editor-in-chief of Jazz & Pop.

Kaye's first byline in the magazine was a favorable review of the Small Faces' Ogden's Nut Gone Flake. "I did two or three reviews each month and got free records," he enthuses. "I was just amazed!"

He adds that it was almost a year later before he was invited to his first press party, held to honor the publication of Lillian Roxon's definitive Rock and Roll Encyclopedia. The contacts Kaye made that night not only became lifelong friends but irrevocably set his career in motion.

Roxon (oft described as the "mother hen" of rock 'n' roll) took Kaye under her wing and introduced him to Lisa Robinson and Danny Fields. In turn, Fields introduced him to the staff at Cavalier, where he was given a monthly music column. "Before I knew it, I was writing for a living," marvels Kaye.

She Asked Me If I'd Back Her Up On A Couple Of Things

If you believe in fate, Kaye's life is a textbook case. On February 10, 1971, in celebration of Bertolt Brecht's birthday, Patti Lee Smith gave her very first poetry reading at St. Mark's Church and Kaye backed her on guitar.

Patti Smith and Raw Power

The two met when Smith responded to a piece Kaye had written for Jazz & Pop. "It was the one article I felt I had to write," he says, "because I thought I was the only one who knew anything about it — the Acappella doo-wop scene of the tri-state area. It was a great article! Patti read it and she called me up."

A Chicago native, Smith grew up in New Jersey. She'd moved to New York in 1967 to dedicate herself to a career in art but was leaning towards poetry.

"On Saturday nights, she would come into Village Oldies, where I was working," recollects Kaye. "We'd drink a little beer, and I'd put on the Moonglows and we'd dance around the store. It was kind of sweet. She knew I dabbled in guitar, so she asked me if I'd back her up on a couple of things. We worked out three or four musical pieces. It wasn't hard figuring out what to play because even then, she had a rhythm and a certain melody to her voice. We did 'Mack the Knife' and 'Fire of Unknown Origin' [a version of which later appeared on a Blue Oyster Cult LP]. We did a song she wrote called 'Jessie James,' and this song about a car race and subsequent crash called 'Ballad of a Bad Boy.'" 

Smith also read several self-penned poems that night, the first of which was "Oath." Its opening line went: "Jesus died for somebody's sins/But not mine..."

I Wanted To Call It Rockin' And Reelin' U.S.A.

That same year, Esquire featured Kaye in its Heavy 100 round-up. "I was the token rock critic," he states. On that basis, he was hired by Jac Holzman, head of Elektra Records, to "do a little A&R, although they never seemed to like anything that I turned up." One group Kaye wanted Elektra to sign was the Sidewinders — a Boston-based pop band featuring Andy Paley. 

Nuggets — released on Elektra Records (1972)

Still, Kaye's short-lived record company stint was not entirely without purpose as it resulted in the 1972 release of Nuggets. Subtitled "Original Artyfacts From the First Psychedelic Era 1965-1968," the compilation of garage rock classics urged listeners to take a more serious look at what had been considered simply AM radio pop ditties.

While most of the tunes were only a few years old in '72, "we were far enough removed that we could see something had happened then," says Kaye.

His extensive liner notes began: "This is the story of a transition period in American rock and roll, of a changeling era which dashed by so fast that nobody knew much of what to make of it while it was around, only noticeable in retrospect by the vast series of innovations it would eventually spawn, both in the way music would be listened to and the way it was constructed."

The preliminary idea for the project was Holzman's — "He wanted to put together an album of all these great one-off cuts" — but the implementation was all down to Kaye. "I made a list of songs that I would play on Saturday night at Village Oldies; there were 50 or 60 songs on the original list! I organized it, got the information, wrote the liner notes, pushed for cool cover art... One of my models was the Yazoo blues albums [which showcased titles such as Blues of Southwest Georgia 1927-1932], very scholarly things with all the keys and tunings. The other was the Mr. Maestro oldies albums, which had teenage hoodlums on the covers." Even misspelling artifacts with a "y" was Kaye's idea: "It was like the Byrds."

Holzman did, however, make one significant decision. "I wanted to call the album Rockin' and Reelin' U.S.A." confides Kaye. "But Jac said, 'No.' He wanted to call it Nuggets, for which I'm eternally grateful!"

Advert for some 1978 PSG UK

shows with support from the Pop Group  

But when his day job ended six months later, Nuggets was still just a work in progress. "About six months after that," says Kaye, "this lawyer called me up and said, 'We have the rights to all these cuts. What should we do with 'em?'"

Kaye's inventory was pared down to 27 songs, which filled four sides. The eclectic track listing contained both Top 10 smash hits and rarely heard obscurities, including the Standells' "Dirty Water," "Night Time" by the Strangeloves, "Sugar and Spice" by the Cryan' Shames, The Magic Mushrooms' "It's A-Happening," and the Chocolate Watchband's "Let's Talk About Girls."

In his CREEM review, Ben Edmonds commented: "[Kaye's] come pretty damn close to pleasing all of the people all of the time, and probably wound up pleasing himself most of all." But Kaye didn't stop to ponder the impact Nuggets would have because at the time of its release, he was busy creating a new type of rock 'n' roll magazine, as well as reinventing the genre itself with the Patti Smith Group.

"Not Just A Front Seat, But Backstage With The Stars..." That's how Richard Robinson defined Rock Scene magazine. He went on to say that, "somewhere between Dylan going electric and the Beatles recording Sgt. Pepper, rock and roll became art, and as art it was gulped down without a grain of salt. By the early seventies, rock journalism totally reflected this art-form consciousness; the humor and energy of rock was so bogged down with charisma analysis that it had become difficult to remember that rock was a teenage dream."

Patterned on film magazines of the 1930s and teenybopper 'zines like 16 and Tiger Beat — "Lots of pictures and damn few words!" Robinson once declared — the first issue of Rock Scene was published in March 1973 with David Bowie as Ziggy Stardust on its cover. The masthead listed Robinson as Managing Editor, his wife Lisa as Society Editor, and Kaye as Associate Editor. Kaye fills in the job descriptions: "Richard and I would divide up the photo spreads. We'd spend about three days smoking pot and writing captions! A lot of the information was Lisa's because she was into rock as gossip."

Patti Smith on the cover of Rock Scene

May 1976

Rock Scene went to glamorous parties, fabulous openings, and swanky premiers. Articles featured intriguing headlines like "David and Lou: The deadly duo of rock & roll," "Ian Hunter rocks after dark," and "The Ramones go to Washington." And there were regular columnists — such as Wayne County, who doled out fashion and beauty advice to the likes of Dave from San Diego who pleaded: "My platforms are killing me! Is there a way out?"

New bands were promoted in each issue. (The Talking Heads got their initial publicity via Rock Scene, while a very early picture of a heavily made-up quartet from "New York's theatrical band scene" was captioned: "Are you ready for Kiss?") And under the heading "Doc Rock," Kaye answered music trivia questions.

Although no individual Doc Rock query stands out as his favorite ("I haven't opened that drawer in a long time," he says), Kaye does remember meeting one noteworthy letter writer: "I went to see GG Allin three or four years ago. I was sitting at the bar, and he walked up to me and introduced himself as one of the kids who used to write to Rock Scene."

Given its geographic location and hip staff (Leee Black Childers and Bob Gruen supplied the bulk of the photos, and Patti Smith sometimes contributed articles), it should come as no surprise that Rock Scene was also one of the first music magazines to cover New York's embryonic punk movement. "I'm sure we had the first pictures from CBGB," states Kaye, "because we were among the first 25 people to hang out there."

What We Were Doing Was So Out Of The Ordinary

Since her debut performance with Kaye, Smith had become a published poet. She was living with Allen Lanier of Blue Oyster Cult, working in a bookshop, and writing the occasional article for music 'zines. One night in 1973, she again dropped into Village Oldies, where Kaye still worked on Saturday nights. "She said she was gonna give a reading in honor of [19th-century French poet] Arthur Rimbaud's birthday," says Kaye. "And she asked if I wanted to do a couple of songs with her — just like old times!"

Arista Records advert for the Wave LP

Following that show at the Hotel Diplomat, the Smith/Kaye duo began making regular appearances around town. "Her manager would get us a gig about once a month, and I would go down and play my three songs," notes Kaye.

But by the time they opened for Phil Ochs during a weeklong run of shows in late December at Max's Kansas City, the poetry and rock 'n' roll were getting equal treatment throughout the set, and a permanent piano player had been added. "We always had a different piano player," observes Kaye. "Nobody stayed with us. Nobody knew what we were doing, so it was a little tough at first. But over the course of three or four months, we became more integrated. It coalesced into a band."

An ad in the Village Voice for a keyboardist with "relentless rhythm" netted them Richard "DNV" Sohl, a classically trained pianist who wore a sailor suit to the audition. "He helped us so much to get the music out to the... astral plane," says Kaye. "He had so much technique, and yet he could space out so well. It was very telepathic."

Patti Smith on the cover of Punk Rock

December 1977

In his book, From the Velvets to the Voidoids, author Clinton Heylin writes that during this formative period: "Smith and Kaye still conceived of themselves as an art project whose connection with rock 'n' roll was at best tangential."

Kaye agrees with Heylin. "What we were doing was so out of the ordinary," he reflects. "I don't think either of us felt there was much place for it in the world. You gonna play the Palladium with three pieces, reading poetry?"

However, between '74 and '75, a series of events turned the unusual threesome into a group whose music Lester Bangs once characterized as: "A new Romanticism built upon the universal language of rock 'n' roll, an affirmation of life so total that, even in the graphic recognition of death, it sweeps your breath away."

Easter 1974: On their way home from seeing the film Ladies and Gentlemen, the Rolling Stones, Smith and Kaye stop off to watch Television play their third show at a seedy Bowery bar called CBGB.

June 5, 1974: With Television's Tom Verlaine on lead guitar, Smith, Kaye and Sohl record "Hey Joe" b/w "Piss Factory." The band's debut single is issued through Mer Records, a purpose-made label principally financed by photographer Robert Mapplethorpe. "We wanted to see if we could get the magic we felt we were creating onstage onto a record," explains Kaye. "We recorded it in about three hours."

The A-side, a radically reworked version of the quintessential mid-'60s rocker previously recorded by both the Leaves and Jimi Hendrix, was preceded by a poem Smith had written about kidnap victim Patty Hearst called "Sixty Days." Heylin states: "This technique of prefacing covers with snippets of her own poetry was a logical extension of the early Smith/Kaye sets." Of the B-side (a frank account of the degradation she suffered while working in a New Jersey factory), Smith has said: "To me, that little 'Piss Factory' thing is the most truthful thing I ever writ."

Sire UK reissue of "Hey Joe" b/w "Piss Factory"

November 1974: On a shoestring budget, the trio travel to California, where they make their West Coast debut at the Whisky in Los Angeles. A couple of days later, they travel to the Bay Area and play upstairs at Rather Ripped Records in Berkeley, which is followed by a gig at San Francisco's Winterland (legend has it that Jonathan Richman sat in on drums). "By then, the music had grown to the point where we needed somebody else," stresses Kaye. "I was really trying to keep the rhythm going. I couldn't really do anything else."

Once back in New York, they auditioned for a rhythm guitarist/bassist. "Every conceivable kind of guitar player came down," remembers Kaye. "We'd play 'Gloria' with them... They usually had no idea what we were doing. It was interesting because, for the first time, we had to define our sound. Who are we? What are we?"

It was Ivan Král, then-guitarist for Blondie (and onetime guitarist for Shaun Cassidy!), who got the job. In Heylin's book, Smith shares her memories of the audition: "Finally Ivan Král came in ... this little Czechoslovakian would-be rock star. He said, 'I am here to be in your band.' We did 'Land of a Thousand Dances' and it went on so long I thought I was gonna puke."

"He played for 20 minutes," emphasizes Kaye. "He didn't wanna stop! He also had a rock 'n' roll look to him, which was nice since the rest of us were these weird alien creatures!"

March - April 1975: Having made their CBGB's debut in February, the group is booked for a memorable two-month residency at the club, playing four nights a week (Thursday-Sunday) on a bill with Television. "That was when we really homed in on all the songs," says Kaye, "a lot of which were just abstract jams. That's where 'Land' started to really blossom and 'Tales of Johnny.' Then, with 'Free Money' and 'Gloria' we started repeating moves, and the songs started taking on a very organic structure. We didn't plan it; it just came out of the playing. We'd all go to the same place at the same time, and the next night we'd remember that. Pretty soon, we had our whole set."

"Child Bride" b/w "Tracks of My Tears"

Mer Records (1980)

By the end of their residency Clive Davis had signed them to his Arista label ("For reasons that still escape me," chuckles Kaye), and Jay Dee Daugherty had been added on drums. According to Kaye: "We thought, 'Okay, it's time we become a band. We might as well get a drummer too.'"

The previous year, Daugherty had moved to New York from Santa Barbara to join the Mumps, a quirky pop-punk band led by Lance Loud and Kristian Hoffman. By February 1975, the Mumps were playing CBGBs alongside Patti Smith and Television. But shortly after they'd recorded their first demo tape, Daugherty was recruited by Smith's group.

Later accounts confirmed that Smith was actively (and ruthlessly) looking for a drummer at this point, but Kaye doesn't recall Daugherty playing live with the Patti Smith Group until after the release of their first album. (In a separate interview, Daugherty told me: "I think Tom Verlaine recommended me to Patti. So, during that period, I sat in a couple of times with her, and they eventually asked me if I wanted to join them. And, y'know, there wasn't really too much choice in it. I mean, I'd never seen or imagined any kind of music or person or persona like that. I felt horribly guilty about leaving the Mumps. I didn't want to leave my friends in the lurch. But it was sort of my calling to play with Patti." Follow this link to read my full Mumps interview: devorahostrov.blogspot.co.uk-mumps)

In the summer of '75, the Patti Smith Group entered Electric Ladyland studios with producer John Cale to record their debut LP, Horses. In From the Velvets to the Voidoids, Heylin contends that the emotionally charged album in which Smith draws upon the images of her heroes — Hendrix, Morrison, Rimbaud — as she rages and sometimes falters over the band's minimal-yet-forceful backing, was down to her and Cale battling for control of the studio.

Arista advert for the Horses LP

"If Smith had believed that ... her songs were in recordable form, Cale was not convinced," writes Heylin. "Through his lack of conviction, he forced Smith to re-evaluate all that she had produced." Heylin's assessment is backed up by a quote from Smith, who says: "We came into the studio really half-assed and glib, then I had to pound my fists into his skull day and night."

In a wide-ranging CREEM interview just prior to Horses release, Smith alludes to the studio tensions: "John kept pushing me to improvise and extend — 'Birdland' used to be four minutes onstage, but it flowed in the studio and ended up about nine minutes long." But she also seemed downright pleased with the producer's input: "I was concerned 'cause in some of my songs I take on different personas some people might not understand, like 'Gloria' is a guy singing to a girl — but I didn't want to have to think about my sex on the record. Cool thing was that John was into the chameleon thing, the changeling aspect — and I wasn't made to feel guilty or nervous about any of the subject matter."

Technically, the Dictators were the first of the New York vanguard not yet labeled punk to release an album (1974's critically acclaimed but publicly ignored Go Girl Crazy!). But PSG were the first to attain what could be called success, as Horses entered the Billboard Top 50 — "surprising everybody!" exclaims Kaye.

"I don't think it was so much what we were saying or doing or singing," he continues, "but what we represented. Sometimes a band fulfills a psyche need for people. During our first tour, I could feel that we were becoming a rallying point for all the disaffected rockers in each city. Every place we played, we'd hook into the alternative rock community — all of whom were starting bands. Patti described it as: We were Paul Revere yelling, 'Wake up! Wake up!'"

Lenny Kaye sent Idol Worship a postcard to say

"Thank You" for the interview I did with him in 1980!

In the fall of 1976, PSG issued its sophomore effort, Radio Ethiopia, which Kaye terms their "most angry and uncompromising record."

This time around, Jack Douglas (producer of Aerosmith) oversaw the studio proceedings, which prompted influential music critic Robert Christgau to fume: "It's priggish if not stupid to complain that Radio Ethiopia's 'four chords are not well played.' If they were executed with the precise attack of an Aerosmith, then they would not be well played."

Still, Douglas rendered an air of gravity to the LP, which centered on the title track — a ten-minute free-jazz improvisation co-written by Smith and Allen Lanier — which one music journalist called "their 'Black to Comm,' their 'Little Johnny Jewel.'"

Kaye, specifically, was hugely influenced by free-jazz artists like Albert Ayler and Pharaoh Saunders. "To me, it's the place where rock, jazz, all music blends," he says. "Where all of a sudden, you can break apart structure so totally that you get beyond the beat, beyond melody, into the realm of pure sound. The Velvets — they got there. Something like 'European Son,' when that glass shatters and the band moves into warp speed... There's not much difference with the energy blasts of Roland Kurt or the Art Ensemble. It's something we always tried to do in the Patti Smith Group — to get out there."

"Beware Of Imitators" — Arista advert for

the Radio Ethiopia album

Many considered "Radio Ethiopia" to be the group's ultimate statement — "That track is what we've been working up to for a year," Kaye said at the time. But the album itself was poorly received. Even longtime friend and fan R. Meltzer complained: "Like the title cut's great and tense and all that but it could've extracted a wee bit more from the lesson of the Fugs' 'Virgin Forest' ... 'cause like you can't do 'Goin' Home' — 'Sister Ray' — 'The End' forever cause after a while it just kinda bristles with more than a morsel of uh, dated-ness per se." And radio airplay, even with the closer-to-conventional rock tune, "Pumping (My Heart)," was nil.

When one fanzine journalist asked Smith how this made her feel, she confessed: "I cried. I mean I cried, you know. I fought. I fought with the radio stations and they told me ... either I watch my language and change titles on the songs ... or forget airplay." She added, "I think of Radio Ethiopia as the sacrificial lamb. It got us banned, it put us in a really dark place ... We had trouble getting jobs after that, we were known as troublemakers."

We'd Gone As Far As We Could

Patti Smith on the cover of Time Out 

May 1976

During the US tour in support of Radio Ethiopia, disaster (or divine intervention, if you prefer) struck. In "Ain't It Strange," Smith poses a direct challenge to God: "God make a move..." she shouts at a particularly climactic moment.

On January 26, 1977, He took her up on it. During the song's extended middle-section jam, as Smith spun about in a height of ecstasy and chanted: "Hand of God I feel the finger! Hand of God and I start to whirl! And I whirl and I whirl! Do not get dizzy! Do not fall now..." she plummeted off a 12-foot stage in Tampa, Florida.

Kaye recalls the fateful show: "It was our second night opening for Bob Seger. We hardly ever opened for people, but we were down there and we thought, why not see what we can do with an alien audience. The first night we didn't do that well, so the second night we were itching for blood. We were trying to win the crowd, and we were so in synch as a band. We started moving the rhythm around; it started getting more jerky, dizzier... Patti reached for the microphone and went off the stage."

While it wasn't life-threatening, the fall broke several bones in Smith's neck and her head required 22 stitches; she was completely immobile for three months. Afterwards, she said: "I did feel the finger [of God] push me right over ... I feel it was his way of saying, 'You keep battering against my door and I'm gonna open that door and you'll fall in.' I've had a moment where I had to make a choice, just as I was losing consciousness and I really felt like I was gonna die ... Did I want a communication with God so intimate that I'd be dead, off the earth?"

The accident proved to be something of a watershed for the band. "With Radio Ethiopia, we'd gone as far as we could," asserts Kaye. "We had pushed our own personal envelope as far as it could go. And I think it's good to know that point."

Advert for Easter and a

couple of UK gigs

Yet he insists that the two albums which followed it — Easter and Wave — don't represent a compromise. "I wouldn't call it compromising because that's something we never thought of. If anything, we were rebellious to a fault. Those two albums represent — instead of a music of confrontation — a music of accommodation, of learning to live with one's self and one's demons."

When the band finally returned to the studio in 1978, it was to record their strongest (and certainly most commercially successful) LP: Easter.

Heylin states that the record was going to be called Rock 'N' Roll Nigger after the exuberant anthem in which Smith announces: "Outside of society they're waiting for me/Outside of society that's where I wanna be..." But within a week of her fall, Smith was thinking of the next release as "a resurrection ... it's more creatively sparking, more celebratory ... it's gonna be a celebration of the whole new scene, the whole new wave."

Gone was the experimentation and sometimes overlong ramblings of the previous albums (gone, too, was Richard Sohl, replaced here by Bruce Brody from John Cale's band). Instead, with the help of producer Jimmy Iovine, PSG crafted an album of tough, tight, confident material — and in the process achieved their only Top 40 hit with "Because the Night."

"Because the Night" was the result of a collaboration between Smith and Bruce Springsteen, a collaboration Smith was resistant to. She told CREEM's Susan Whitall: "Bruce was working at the same studio as us and he kept sending me this music ... he'd send me over these tapes and I wouldn't be into them. I was determined not to do any Bruce Springsteen songs. He kept sending these songs and I'd say, 'I ain't doin' nothin' with this guy, he ain't my type.' But then he sent me this music that, like, I wouldn't have cared if Olivia Newton-John had sent me it ... I'd probably have used it. It was so infectious and so perfect for my voice because Bruce really understands that element in it. It's strong, and there's a lot of intelligent animal sexuality in it. A lot of hope."

"Because the Night" 45 picture sleeve

Arista Records (1978)

The liner notes for Easter included a passage from the New Testament: "I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course..." which some interpreted as Smith's way of saying she was finished with rock 'n' roll. She wasn't.

Wave, PSG's fourth (and at times most delicately beautiful) offering, was released in 1979. Heylin calls it "[Smith's] most overt testament to a new-found spirituality." And Kaye maintains: "In a lot of ways Wave is my favorite album. A song like 'Broken Flag' is a real anthem of the human condition."

Sadly, the critical backlash which had been brewing since Radio Ethiopia now came to a boil. Smith was called an "AOR sell-out" and deemed a "pretentious phony," and the LP was almost unanimously dismissed. Christgau grudgingly allowed that Wave "is an often inspired album," but moaned: "I find 'Seven Ways of Going' and 'Broken Flag' as unlistenable (and less interesting than) 'Radio Ethiopia.'"

Meanwhile, CREEM's Joe Fernbacher found Smith's lyrics "ineffective" and her vocals "childish." He called Todd Rundgren's production job "absolutely pedestrian," and in a pique of sarcasm added: "Wave is like a stagnant lagoon in search of a creature to justify its existence."

But the negative reviews didn't hurt PSG's drawing power which, especially in Europe, was at an all-time high. That summer, they sold out a 70,000-seat stadium in Florence, Italy. "And we were the only band on the bill," says Kaye.

Arista advert for the Easter LP

The Patti Smith Group could have carried on indefinitely, but Wave was indeed their "wave good-bye." The band's last live appearance for a number of years was in June 1980, when they played a benefit for Detroit's symphonic orchestra.

Back then, Kaye gave a vaguely mystical and mystifying explanation for the break-up, saying: "Basically [Patti] had certain [spiritual] questions when she began as an artist, and through her art, she was able to answer them and come to the end of the rainbow." Today, his reply is more matter-of-fact: "We'd done all that we'd set out to do. We'd had our hit single. We had influenced everybody that needed influencing. And we'd played the songs every conceivable way."

And it wasn't only Smith who wanted the break. "I was ready to make my move into the '80s as well," Kaye emphasizes.

The River Was Flowing In That Direction

Poster marking the final concert at CBGB

During Kaye's tenure with the Patti Smith Group, his rock writing was limited to bits and pieces in Rock Scene, and the co-authorship with David Dalton of Rock 100 — a hand-picked catalog of the all-time best bands/musicians. (Who wrote what is supposed to be a state secret, but some of Kaye's entries included the Velvet Underground, Duane Eddy, the MC5, and Love).

But as PSG wound down and Rock Scene published its final issue, he found himself a bit adrift. (One of Kaye's last "Doc Rock" columns referenced a San Francisco fanzine called Idol Worship and its teenaged staff, for which we thank him very much!)

In 1980, Kaye turned up in the Bay Area — ostensibly on holiday. As he stated in Idol Worship: "I wanted to get out of New York. I needed a little perspective on what's going on, y'know. So, I figured I'd come to another cool city. I think San Francisco's a pretty cool city." (He also revealed that he'd visited El Cerrito earlier that day.)

He played a one-off gig in San Francisco with a pick-up band dubbed Los Nuggets, which featured ex-Avengers' bassist Jimmy Wilsey and Sudden Fun drummer Derek Ritchie. Included in the setlist were "La Bamba," "Yummy Yummy Yummy," "Rock 'n' Roll Nigger," and an encore of "For Your Love."

He released a 45 through Mer Records ("Child Bride" b/w a live cover of "Tracks of My Tears"). He backed Jim Carroll on a 1982 US tour. He took a job at a radio production company, which at least made his mom happy. ("I called my mother and said, 'I got a job, it pays $30 grand a year.' She said, 'Oh, thank God!'") He fathered a child (Anna Lee, now 10 years old). And in 1984 — fronting the Lenny Kaye Connection — he released his first solo LP, I've Got a Right, on the specialist GPS label.

"In retrospect," says Kaye, "if I'd been more on top of it, I would've just started soloing and doing original stuff quickly. But I didn't really know what I wanted to say." When I ask about major-label interest, he replies: "I was never in the right place at the right time to land a deal."

Lenny Kaye Connection — I've Got a Right LP

Released in 1984 on the GPS label

In the end, Kaye found his niche — which turned out to be producing other people's records. As he puts it: "The river was flowing in that direction." Rather than focusing solely on either writing or playing, Kaye feels that production allows him the best of both worlds. "It combines my analytical/intellectual side — where I listen to something and figure out why it does or doesn't work — with my musical side, because I have to be able to relate to the musicians."

Kaye's first production credit was for Japanese artist Go Ohgami. He went on to produce Suzanne Vega's eponymous debut and its follow-up Solitude Standing. "I was brought in fairly early on by Suzanne's A&R agent," says Kaye. "She felt that Suzanne was playing in a very insular folk scene and wanted her to have some contact with her musical peers. A lot of my work with Suzanne involved opening the doors to the wider world of rock 'n' roll, as well as helping her to understand her gift and her vision."

He pauses for a few seconds in thought. "In a lot of ways, that's what my kind of production is. I don't get people 'a great drum sound.' To me, you're dealing with wild cards of talent and personality, and sometimes it's helpful to have someone be a mirror; to have someone help conceptualize the vision."

To date, Kaye has put his stamp on over two dozen albums, including James' Stutter, Soul Asylum's Hang Time, and most recently Kristin Hersh's (ex-Throwing Muses) solo debut. "I've gotten to work with some of the most wonderful people," he acknowledges. "I feel like every one of them has been shot through with genius!"

"Crazy Like a Fox" — Norton Records reissue (1990)

Currently (when he's not providing backing for Jim Carroll's poetry readings), Kaye can be found at home in Philadelphia, where he's writing an "autobiography" of country rocker Waylon Jennings. "I know calling it an autobiography sounds odd," he admits. "Waylon tells it to me and I 'creatively organize' it, put in the right connectives, get him to dig deep."

Kaye mentions that Jennings has already "burned through" two previous biographers but adds confidently, "I went out on the bus with him for a few days and we got along great. He likes the fact that I'm a guitar player. And he likes the fact that I'm not from Nashville; I have an outsider's perspective. He's really starting to open up to me."

And there's always the possibility that he and Patti Smith will reconnect. As he told Idol Worship in 1980: "I've been working with Patti for nine years now, and I expect to be working with her for the rest of my life."

Some Q & A

Q: As a well-known record collector, is there anything you're still looking for?
Kaye: Not really. Anything I've looked for, I've been able to find. But there's a million records I never knew existed! I'm amazed that I can still find records I've never seen before!

Q: What's the most you've ever paid for a record?
Kaye: Maybe $30 or $40. I just paid $16 for this record by the Scramblers called Psycho Cycle, 12 weird motorcycle songs: "Steel Shoes," "In the Pits"... But I won't pay $100 or $200 for a record. Well, I would if I was crazy, but that takes the fun out of finding it for a buck somewhere. This reminds me of when I was working at Village Oldies. There were all these strange kids whose social world was one of collecting records. And to be honest, I was one of them myself. Y'know people don't give record collectors their due. They really find and keep a lot of music alive that would otherwise be lost to history.

Q: As a music critic, have you ever been totally wrong about a group?
Kaye: I've been wrong about lots of groups. I thought the New York Dolls were gonna be massive! My feeling is that no matter how objective you think you are, you're still filtering everything through your own sensibilities. We all have our internal prejudices, likes and dislikes. Obviously, if I like the Stooges and MC5, I'm not going to be as open-minded to someone like Hall and Oates. But what I write is just my opinion. A lot of critics think that what they say is the gospel truth as opposed to, "Hey, this is my opinion." And sometimes you're right and sometimes you're wrong.
     A lot of [popular] records are not on my turntable, and I love a lot of records that I can't defend critically. A lot of times, records take me by surprise. I'll groove to them on the radio and then find out it's by somebody I hate. I actually own a couple Chicago records! I don't think that they contributed anything to the world, but I'm sorry, I like "Color My World."

Q: Do you see yourself as a musician first/writer second or vice versa?

Kaye: I know it seems like either you write or you play music, but I've never divided the two. When I'm really into the rhythm of writing, I feel the same sense of concentration that I do when I have a good night playing the guitar. I always felt that one of my main strengths as a rock writer was that I knew what it was like to be in a band, and one of my main strengths as a musician is that I can turn off my intellectual abilities and just get into the music.

The Patti Smith Group (publicity photo)

Stiv Bators: Two Extraordinarily Candid Interviews With The Legendary Frontman For The Dead Boys and The Lords Of The New Church

Originally published in Rave-Up #12 (1987)
Interviews by Devorah Ostrov

The Lords of the New Church - publicity photo

L-R: Nick Turner, Dave Tregunna, Brain James & Stiv Bators

These two interviews with Stiv Bators took place over the course of last year. We began during a US tour in early 1986, shortly after the Lords of the New Church had parted ways with their label, I.R.S. Records. Several months later, and just before Stiv returned to the States for a second Dead Boys reunion, we met up again for a chat at guitarist Alastair Symons' house in London.

Part 1: March 1986 at the Stone in San Francisco 

Q: I understand that the Lords were dropped by I.R.S. last year. Are you touring over here without label support?

Stiv pretends he's starring in A Clockwork Orange
on the roof of a Los Angeles hotel.
Photo: Devorah Ostrov

Stiv: Yeah, we're just doing it on our own. Miles [Copeland, head of I.R.S. Records] is supporting us a little bit through the label's management side, 'cause he's still interested in us.

Q: Does he hope you'll come back to I.R.S.?

Stiv: Yeah, he's hoping we'll re-sign. What happened was... We were officially dropped last May, but they tried to swing a deal where they could re-sign us in December [1985] going into January [1986]. But they wanted us to re-sign with a first-year option.

Q: Basically, like you're a new band on the label?

Stiv: Yeah, we start all over again. What they do... They tell you they're dropping you when your option comes up. But because Miles is also our manager, they said, "Don't worry. We'll put you on another label." Then they come back and say, "Nobody's interested in you. We'll re-sign you, but with a first-year option." So, instead of paying you what they're supposed to, they re-sign you at like $30,000. I checked up on it; Miles never sent our tapes to anyone. In the meantime, they wanted us to sign this thing where they'd give us so much per week to survive on — a pitiful amount of money per week. So, when he said he was gonna drop us, we said, "Fine." We went on tour and survived that way.

The Lords bid farewell to LA with this gig at the

Music Machine - August 6, 1986, with Blood on

the Saddle, the Little Kings, and Jetboy.

Q: I've also heard a rumor that I.R.S. issued Killer Lords [a compilation LP] in order to recoup a rather large amount of money that the band owed the label. Is there any truth to that?

Stiv: They said we hadn't recouped the money... In other words, all the money that they put into the band is a loan, and they're supposed to get it back from record sales. But that was when The Method to Our Madness came out [1984]. That's why there was no push on it. And it's funny, about three months later, a bill for £450,000 that they said was unrecouped suddenly recouped. So, y'know... it's all bullshit!

Q: I noticed that you have a new bass player [Grant Fleming]. When did Dave [Tregunna] leave?

Stiv: I think it was December. Miles tried to stop us [touring]. He got rid of our road crew to other people; offered 'em more money. But what finally did it was... We were supposed to do a tour of England in November, and that would have held us over with enough money to survive. Two weeks before the tour started, I.R.S. stopped the release of the album [Killer Lords], which made all the promoters back out. When that happened... Dave had no money, and on Christmas Eve he was evicted from his flat. He'd been working with Andy [McCoy, ex-Hanoi Rocks/ Cherry Bombz guitarist] on his solo project. He had nowhere to go, and we'd stopped touring, so he went with Cherry Bombz.

Brian James - San Francisco, 1984
Photo: Devorah Ostrov

Q: As well as a new bassist, you've also got a second guitarist now — my old friend Alastair Symons from the Dirty Strangers! How did that come about?

Stiv: He was thrown out of the Dirty Strangers for drinking!

Q: But they're all big drinkers!

Stiv: Yeah, but Alastair's a big drinker! Anyway, he was a friend of Brian's and they just started jamming together. Then, when I came back from America, I found out he was in the band.

The Lords are CREEM magazine's

centerfold calendar pic - October 1986. 

Q: They didn't tell you?

Stiv: No. It was the same way with Grant. I came back from America, and we had a new bass player. I'll come back from America one day and find out there's a new singer. The English are a very loyal people. Haha!

Q: So, how's it working out with Grant and Alastair?

Stiv: Good.

Q: 'Cause everybody seemed to be fighting last night.

Stiv: That's normal; the English always do that.

Q: Does having a rhythm guitarist make a big difference to the band's sound?

Stiv: Yeah, a real big difference. It's more like when I did the show with the Dead Boys last Halloween. I had forgotten what it was like to have two guitarists. There's a lot more power. You can feel it more.

Q: Have you moved back to New York now? Or are you still living in London?

Stiv: I share a flat with Brian in London, and I live with Martha [Quinn, MTV VJ] in New York.

Alastair Symons & Brian James at
Fisherman's Wharf in San Francisco
Photo: Devorah Ostrov

Q: A while ago, I heard that you and Mike Monroe [ex-Hanoi Rocks vocalist] were working together. Are you going to release something?

Stiv: We did some demo tapes. But Mike got talked out of releasing 'em by his manager because they weren't perfect — because it was 8-track. He thinks everything has to be 24-track. The best stuff is on 8-track! But yeah, me and Michael are gonna do something at the end of this tour.

Q: Who sings when you two record together?

Stiv: Uhmm... both of us. We do harmonies. It's like the Everly Brothers.

Q: How did you and Mike get involved with Little Steven and his Artists United Against Apartheid project?

Stiv: Oh, I thought it was for apartheid. I fucked up again.

Q: Haha!

Stiv: Little Steven came over when Bruce Springsteen was playing in London, and he ended up producing "Lords Prayer" [written for the band by T.V. Smith] and "Hey Tonight" [a CCR cover; both songs are included on Killer Lords]. Then he came back to London to record some people for [the single] "Sun City," and he asked me and Mike to come down to the studio. We did the high-pitched girls' vocals. When it sounds like black girls singing, it's really me and Mike!

R.E.M. open for the Lords at the Old Waldorf

San Francisco - August 24, 1982

Q: Didn't Little Steven also play on Mike's demo?

Stiv: Yeah, he plays a 12-string and sings back-up on "I Wanna Be with You" [a Raspberries' cover], and he sings back-up on "She's No Angel" [a Heavy Metal Kids' cover]. It was good because when I was in the studio, Steven made me sing "Lord's Prayer" about 15 times! But I was producing Mike's demo, so I got him back. I kept telling him, "You missed it! It ain't good enough! Do it again!"

Q: I remember being in the recording studio when you were doing the vocals for "Method to My Madness." Chris [Tsangarides, producer] made you do the same word over and over again. It took hours to do the one song! I didn't realize it was so difficult.

Stiv: It's only difficult when the singers on speed.

Q: Last night, you were saying that you'd lost ten years of your life because of drug use, that complete years are gone from your memory.

Stiv: I remember bits here and there.

Q: That seems kind of sad, considering the amazing life you've led.

Stiv: Nah... It's kind of fun, 'cause people tell you about all the fun you've had. It's surprising!

Stiv Bators
Photo: Devorah Ostrov

Q: Does your reputation ever bother you?

Stiv: It's all I've got.

Q: But you're nothing like your reputation. You're a sweetheart.

Stiv: Don't tell anyone that! Haha!

Q: What do your parents think about your image?

Stiv: They don't think it's real. The first time my mom saw me onstage, Iggy Pop joined us, and some girl jumped up with a can of whipped cream and gave me a blow job. My mom just didn't even see it. It was like, "That's not my son up there!" But now she's learned to deal with it. I even told them recently about me using heroin and speed and stuff, and they said they always knew.

Q: Do your parents still live in Youngstown [Ohio]?

Stiv: Yeah, the same place where I grew up. They tried to get away a few times, but with the right detective agency, I always found out where they were and brought 'em back! Haha! The last time I went home, my mom paid me for the paper but wouldn't let me in. She thought I was the paperboy. They hate me.

The Lords of the New Church with Fields of the Nephilim
Camden Palace - November 27, 1986

Q: No, they don't. Are they proud of you?

Stiv: Yeah, they have to be. I'm the only one. I'm what they got! The government paid 'em $30 a week not to have any more children. Haha! My parents... Have you met 'em? 

Q: No...

Stiv: They're really nice. My dad used to sing on the radio before WW2, and then during the war, he did USO shows. He was in the Navy USO. He sang with Kay Kaiser and Tommy Dorsey. When he came out, he had a record contract waiting for him, but he gave it up 'cause he wanted to settle down. Plus, he had to support my grandmother and his younger brothers and sisters 'cause my grandfather was a drunk. He was a gypsy...  

I.R.S. advert for Is Nothing Sacred?

Q: So, you're sort of following in the family footsteps.

Stiv: I'm a bit of both, I guess. 'Cause my grandfather was a right bastard! He used to beat the wife and all that. 

Q: There were quite a few new songs in last night's set. Are you working on new material?

Stiv: Yeah, there's eight new songs. One's called "Wine, Women and Song" and there's "Light and Shade"... But those are just the working titles. In fact, there's no lyrics for 'em yet.

Q: So, you just made them up?

Stiv: Yeah, I always do. Once they're recorded, I have to remember what I put down.

Q: I'm sure you adlib occasionally!

Stiv: Oh, yeah! Definitely. I always forget the lyrics to "Open Your Eyes."

Q: So, eight new songs... That's an album's worth.

The Lords of the New Church on the cover

of Sounds - November 24, 1984

Stiv: Yeah...

Q: Are demo tapes done and ready to shop to potential labels?

Stiv: No. That's what we're gonna work on at the end of the tour. We were supposed to go back to LA, but y'know... The West Coast ain't gonna be here after May.

Q: What's happening?

Stiv: Halley's Comet.

Q: I know there've been loads of reports about how debris from its tail will pummel the planet, but the comet has already passed over California without causing any problems.

Stiv: Just say if a piece of Halley's Comet came off and struck America... It would set off the Doomsday machine. Y'know, there's a sensor system, like if we get hit by something. If it feels like an atomic war or a nuclear attack, the first strike goes straight to Russia.

Q: The actual existence of a Doomsday machine is debatable, but I'll play along. And then Russia sends a strike our way...

Stiv: Right!

Me & Stiv during the "Clockwork
Orange" photo session.

Q: So, it doesn't matter if you're in California or not. If there's a nuclear strike...

Stiv: But that only happens if a piece falls off. There's also Mount St. Helens [the active volcano located in Washington, which last erupted in 1980]. Mount St. Helens is going to erupt because of Halley's Comet. That's how they figure it's gonna happen. The gravitational pull of Halley's Comet is gonna set off the fault lines and the volcano. There's already been an earthquake in Mexico City. When we were in Tokyo last year, we had an earthquake there. It's been setting off volcanos all around the "ring of fire," which goes from Peru to the Philippines. It's going to set 'em all off.

Q: So, I guess you're not making any plans to record some demos in LA?

Stiv: If it's still here. But Howard Hughes built a seaport in Nevada called Las Vegas. That's the reason he built it there, so he'd have the closest city to...

Q: Howard Hughes was declared insane.

Stiv: That's why they declared him insane, 'cause he knew what was going on. He was too brilliant; they had to put him away.

Stiv Bators and Dave Tregunna
Photo: Devorah Ostrov

Q: They haven't put you away yet.

Stiv: I'm not a threat yet, but Miles is working on it. Miles already told me to keep my mouth shut about politics, 'cause I knew about a lot of things that were going on.

Q: According to one article I read, you made some "loose accusations" regarding the Falklands.

Stiv: I was on an English TV show... It was live, and I told 'em that the [HMS] Sheffield was sunk by a particle-beam weapon and not an Exocet missile. It was cut out of the re-run, and Miles told me to never talk about it again. But recently, the commander of the Sheffield admitted that it was a particle-beam weapon that sank it. And the whole reason the Falklands [War] started was to free this nuclear cache that we had. I could go on and on, but it gets boring. Miles' father [CIA officer Miles Copeland, Jr.] called me into the office one day. He wanted to know where I got all my information. I had a lot of tapes with military secrets and government secrets that were sent to me, but I had to get rid of 'em real quick 'cause his father was on to me. My flat got burgled three days after that, but they didn't find 'em.

Q: You think the CIA burgled your flat?

Nick posing at the entrance to SF's Chinatown
Photo: Devorah Ostrov

Stiv: Probably, because of what they took.

Q: What did they take?

Stiv: Magazines... some subversive stuff... military secrets.

Q: This interview is starting to sound like the lyrics to "Method to My Madness."

Stiv: That's what the song is about, how the record company is trying to stop us: "Boy, you better shut your mouth/You can't afford the bail/Don't go telling secrets/This records gotta sell." We had Miles do the voice. He didn't even realize...

Q: He didn't realize what he was saying?

Stiv: No! And they released it as our single. Dumb bastards!

Q: Do you get to see a lot of new bands these days?

Stiv: I don't really get a chance to.

Q: Are you still a big rock 'n' roll fan?

Stiv: Oh, yeah! I just don't get a chance to see 'em. I like Smack a lot. And I like Sigue Sigue Sputnik 'cause they're just a scam. They play to tapes; it's just an image!

The Lords of the New Church support the Damned 

at the Hammersmith Palais - July 10, 1983

Q: But rock 'n' roll has always been about image as much as music.

Stiv: Especially now with MTV and videos. The lifestyle is more important than the music sometimes.

Q: Do you think your lifestyle sometimes overshadows your music?

Stiv: Yeah, it's a shame when I actually have to get up and sing.

Advert for the Lords 1984 UK tour

with I.R.S. labelmates Wall of Voodoo.

Q: Would you rather just hang out and be known for your lifestyle?

Stiv: Yeah, I think they should just pay me for that. I could just go to clubs and hang out. I actually try to get away with that sometimes.

Q:  Are you a fan of your former labelmates, Wall of Voodoo? You guys did a UK tour with them in '84, which seemed like a really good match.

Stiv: Andy [Prieboy, who replaced Stan Ridgway as Wall of Voodoo's vocalist] is a great singer. They're better now than they ever were. Bruce [Moreland, bassist] is cool. And Andy's got a lot of that Morrison persona about him.

Q: You've got a bit of a Morrison persona as well. Are you into him?

Stiv: More so after I read the book [No One Here Gets Out Alive]. Not so much when he was... performing. I almost said alive, but he is alive. But after I read the book, there were so many parallels between us. Like staying in the same hotel rooms — even in Paris.

Q: I heard about that. That's really wild.

Stiv Bators
Photo: Devorah Ostrov

Stiv: When I met [Danny] Sugerman, he was really freaked out. He said I'm so close to Morrison's spirit... By being in all those places... He thinks I was drawn to them by the spirit of Jim Morrison — the same demon.

Q: But you've said you weren't a Doors fan as a teenager.

Stiv: No, I never liked 'em 'cause they weren't a guitar band. I preferred the Stooges.

Q: You mentioned last year's Dead Boys reunion earlier. That must have been pretty awesome!

Stiv: It was great!

Q: How did it come about?

Stiv: It actually started in Japan. I thought of it when I was on the Bullet Train coming back from Kyoto to Tokyo. I suddenly realized that Halloween was coming up, and it was the 10th anniversary of the Dead Boys getting together. I thought it would be good to get everybody back together, but I didn't know how I was going to get to New York. So, I called up Little Steven on the off chance... I'd had this letter from him saying he was making the ["Sun City"] video, and he flew me and Mike over. So, it was all just meant to happen. I called up all the Dead Boys, some of 'em I hadn't seen or talked to in six years. And they said they were into it.

Q: Was the place packed for the reunion?

The Dead Boys at the Old Waldorf - 1977

Photo: Devorah Ostrov

Stiv: The club holds 1,200 people — 900 legally. We had 2,500 packed in!

Q: Did you do all the old songs?

Stiv: Yeah, plus we did "She's No Angel." Mike and Little Steven got up and did the encores. And we did the Dead Boys' version of "Tell Me" with Holly Beth Vincent.

Q: It must have been pretty emotional, everybody getting back together after all that time.

Stiv: Yeah... It was traumatic.

Q: Are you surprised that there's still so much interest in the Dead Boys?

Stiv: At first, I was. But it's sort of like how I felt about the Stooges when I was younger; that's how people feel about the Dead Boys now. We're legends in our own minds!

* * *

Part 2: October 1986 in Alastair Symons' living room

The Lords of the New Church with

Will & the Kill at Cave Club
July 25, 1987

Q: This is a nice place. The last time I was in London, you had a flat off Portobello Road.

Stiv: Arundel Gardens... Me, Mike [Monroe] and [Johnny] Thunders were sharing it.

Q: That must have been a crazy living situation.

Stiv: Yeah, it was fun!

Q: Did anyone ever sleep?

Stiv: Nah! We used to go for ten days at a time and then sleep for three days. It was so bad. Johnny would be sitting there going, "Somebody's on the roof! I heard somebody on the roof!" And he'd look out the window thinking the police were following him. There was no one around, y'know! We had a good time, though.

Q: What's the situation with the Lords now? You're a band but still without a label?

Stiv: Yeah, we haven't had a contract since May of '85.

Q: Are you doing as well without I.R.S. as you would with them?

Stiv: Yeah! Bomp Records handles things a lot better! The original I.R.S. in LA was great. That's why we signed with them. They had people who really liked the music; they liked rock 'n' roll. You go into their offices now, and it's like MCA or any of the others. The trouble is, they don't have any of the benefits. They're very inefficient and very uncaring.

Stiv Bators and Brian James
Photo: Devorah Ostrov

Q: It sounds like maybe you should have gotten out earlier.

Stiv: We gave them a chance with the first album. They could've really pushed it, but they didn't do it right. They were afraid of us. The second album... They just pissed it out. We wanted out then, but Miles said, "Stick with me for the third album." So, we stuck with him. After that, we just wanted out. We'd wasted too much time and too many good songs.

Q: There's something I don't understand... If you weren't signed to the label at the time of its release, why are two Lords' songs on the I.R.S. soundtrack for Texas Chainsaw Massacre 2? Did Tobe Hooper [the film's producer] approach you directly?

Stiv: Well, Miles is our manager, publisher, and ex-record company. So, our manager approached our publisher, who approached his record company. Tobe Hooper didn't know who we were.

Q: But since you weren't signed to I.R.S...

Stiv: They did a special deal for that record... Which we never signed. And since they put it out and we haven't signed yet — they could be in a lot of trouble! I forgot about that. Let me write that down. We could put an injunction against it, which would mean the film couldn't be shown. And the soundtrack would have to be pulled out of the shops. They'd have to take our stuff out of the film or pay us a certain amount of money. I like this!

Meet the Dead Boys! The band pose with Howie Klein &

Chris Knab outside Aquarius Records in San Francisco - 1977

Photo: Devorah Ostrov

Q: Glad I could help! Did you write those two songs specifically with the film in mind, or were they actual Lords' songs?

Stiv: They were actual Lords' songs. When we got approached about it, I read the script and adapted the lyrics to it. One song was already called "Good to Be Bad." The other one I changed.

Brian James - San Francisco, 1983
Photo: Devorah Ostrov

Q: "Good to Be Bad" is where they're driving backwards over the bridge?

Stiv: Yeah. I don't like the chorus, really.

Q: You can't really hear it that well in the movie. There's a chainsaw going through a car over most of it.

Stiv: Good! A few months ago, I found out that "Russian Roulette" is in a 1983 film called The Star Chamber. We were never told. And Weird Science has "Method" in it.

Q: Yeah, I knew about Weird Science.

Stiv: We were never told about that! Out of Bounds has "Fresh Flesh"; Dangerously Close has "A Kiss of Death." And now Texas Chainsaw... We've never seen any money from any of them.

Q: Wow! I didn't realize you had songs in all those movies.

Stiv: I didn't either!

Q: You told me earlier that you're going back to the States in a few days for health reasons. What's up?

Stiv: Put it this way, three weeks ago I had £2000 and today...

Q: It's all gone?

The Lords of the New Church - publicity photo

Stiv: Yeah, I can't figure out where it went. I've got some ideas but... Haha! It's my own fault. I had all this money and just went wild with it. I was running around taking people out to dinner, that was £100 or £200 a night. Plus, I was going through maybe five grams of speed a day. When it gets to that point, I know something's wrong and I just have to quit.
     So, I'm going back either tomorrow or Sunday. I'm gonna stay with my parents. I only see them like three or four days out of the year. And I'll go to Martha's for a while and see my cat. He's over there with three female white cats in a penthouse in New York.

Q: He's got it better than you!

Stiv: Yeah, from the backstreets of London to a penthouse in New York! And the Dead Boys are rehearsing. We're playing at the Ritz on Halloween. It's already sold out!

Q: Why don't you do a Dead Boys reunion in San Francisco when I'm at home?

Stiv: We did it last Halloween because it was our 10th anniversary, and this year is the 10th anniversary for New York, 'cause we moved there a year later. A year from now, we can have our 10th anniversary for San Francisco. Do you remember that first Lords show in San Francisco? I got drunk at the York Hotel before the show.

Stiv Bators
(San Francisco - 1986)
Photo: Devorah Ostrov

Q: That show was kind of bad.

Stiv: I couldn't find the mike!

Q: I know! There were no vocals for most of the set.

Stiv: They carried me into the show...

Q: And they carried you off stage, too. I've been wondering... What's going on with the solo project you were working on for Bomp? Will you be able to finish that?

Stiv: Yeah, when I find the time. It'll probably be after I do this Dead Boys project. And the Lords... When I come back from that, we're gonna redo the demos and remix them. Then we have a tour coming up at the end of November through mid-December going through France, Italy, and Switzerland. And then I'll probably go home for Christmas. I can take the tapes around New York and go out to LA, 'cause I'd like to do it.

Q: I heard a tape of some cover songs you did for it. It sounded like you'd made a good start.

Stiv: There's better songs that I can do. I hadn't really given it much thought. I'm gonna keep "Story in Her Eyes." And "Have Love Will Travel" is good; I wanna keep that pretty much the way it is. But I'm gonna redo a lot of it.

The Lords outside the York Hotel in San Francisco
Photo: Devorah Ostrov

Q: When you do solo records, and even with the Dead Boys and the Lords, you often choose songs from the '60s to cover. Is that where your heart is musically?

Stiv: It's the music that I've always found the most exciting. The '50s were good, but in the '60s, music reached more of a progressive level and the ideas became more progressive. They started using different sounds and different rhythms. And there was just such an innocence and naiveté about it. I really like it! It's fresh sounding. It was exciting! By the end of the '60s, they'd pushed it as far as they could go, and ever since then, we've just been rehashing it. Instead of inventing new sounds or new styles, we're just mixing one style with another.

Q: Have you made a conscious effort to always do something different with your bands? Or would you say that you're rehashing and recombining styles as well?

Stiv: The Lords was a definite sound that I had in my head. If you listen to "Bad Luck Charm" on my solo album [Disconnected, released in 1980], you'll hear the Lords — the jungle rhythms and sort of an eerie voodoo guitar. Brian had almost the same sound in his head.

Stiv Bators - San Francisco, 1984
Photo: Devorah Ostrov

Q: What about the Dead Boys?

Stiv: The Dead Boys just came out of... We were sick of the scene in Cleveland; there was no scene. We were just frustrated. And they were the only guys I'd found who knew who the Stooges were. We just started off playing Stooges' and Dolls' songs until we found our sound. So, that happened by accident. "The Dead Boys: The mistake on the lake!"

Q: You once told me that the albums you're most proud of are the ones you weren't thinking about too much. Like the first Lords' record and your first solo LP — where there was nothing to live up to.

The Lords of the New Church with

Redd Kross, and the American Girls

Pomona Valley Auditorium

March 28, 1986

Stiv: The first Dead Boys' album... yeah! When you're discovering a whole new sound, there's a lot of excitement and electricity in the record. And there's no set sound. After the album comes out, you realize, "Oh yeah, we sound like this." So, you make sure you sound live like you do on the album. And when you write the second album, it sort of becomes conscious. Everybody figures, "This is our trademark, so we have to put it on every record." It's like when we were doing the back-up vocals on Is Nothing Sacred? and Nick said, "Oh, we better put a Lordsy-style back-up vocal on it." Or you write a song, and they say, "Is this Lords' material?" What is Lords' material? It's whatever you write.

Q: Maybe this break will be good for you. When you come back, things will be fresh.

Stiv: That, plus the fact that me and Brian haven't written much together in a while. So, that'll be good. It'll be good to go back to where it started up. And that way, I can think again. I used to do a lot of thinking. I can't think here; there's too much distraction. It'll be good to go to my parents. People still hate me there, so no one will talk to me!

Q: Do you think your notoriety is part of the reason you're having trouble getting signed? 

Stiv Bators
Photo: Devorah Ostrov

Stiv: A lot of the time, I don't think people — record companies — even know who I am. And I'm surprised when they do! What was really surprising... This guy told me he was watching an interview with Grace Slick, and they asked her who her favorite singer was, and she said it was me! That was... I dunno... I still don't think of myself as like... that people know who I am.

Q: You don't think of yourself as being famous?

Stiv: No! Or that people in the business would know who I am. Or have even heard of me. So that thought never entered into my head, about approaching record companies. But I guess we do have a reputation now for being uh... hard to work with.

Q: That's a good way to put it. Do you find it strange that kids look up to you as a role model?

Stiv: No, I can perfectly understand why kids would wanna be like me. Haha! It is strange, and sometimes I feel funny about it. This kid from another band was talking to me recently... We were just hanging out, and he said, "Talking to you and Brian is really a thrill for me." I'd never even picked it up off him.

Q: Are you happy being a cult hero?

Stiv Bators
Photo: Devorah Ostrov

Stiv: I never really think about it. I just know that we're gonna play music the way we want to and make it sound the way we want to. And if it happens, it happens. I'd rather keep it this way 'cause I'm happy. I dunno... I think I'm fortunate. At one time, I thought I should have made it by now, and I should get out. I think everybody does. But I'm glad I never had a hit single because it probably would've fucked me up. It's better to never have a hit record and be true to yourself.

Q: "It's better to never have a hit record..." That's a strange thing for a musician to say.

Stiv: It depends on what you want in life. For ten years I've done exactly what I want to do, and money hasn't kept me from it. And neither has anything else. If you have a hit single, you have to follow it up with another hit single, and another hit single. You're pushed up to this plateau. Jimmy Destri [Blondie's keyboardist] once told me that him and Clem [Burke, Blondie's drummer] thought that I'd made it and they hadn't. Which I thought was bizarre. Jimmy said, "We have to keep coming up with hits or that's it, and the band breaks up." And they can't play clubs again because they'll look like has-beens.

Q: Jimmy would just be "ex-Blondie" for the rest of his life.

Stiv: I'm just X-rated for the rest of my life! It's much better that way.

The memorial card acknowledging Stiv's death on June 3, 1990

You can read my other interviews with Stiv here:

The Dead Boys: Brand New Band, Same Old Stiv
Lords Of The New Church: Hanging Out On Portobello

Lords of the New Church: I Catch Up With Stiv & Nicky